One year - Changes and lack of changes WTF

[raynes]

I left the game in June of 2005, I’ve been back 3 days and I have already said WTF several times. Here is why:

1) Citizenship costs $100K
This is a huge WTF! Why do I have to pay to become a citizen of my own race? I’m a blue guy with this mask genetically sealed to my face, yet I am being told I’m not actually a Zorai until I fork over 100K. I can see if you want to become a citizen of another race, but your own?

2) No fame for killing bandit without a mission.
This is beyond stupid. If I go kill 100’s of a bandit tribe without taking a mission I get no fame. I was told it makes sense as why would you get credit for doing something your not asked to do? And my response to that is how do npcs know you actually do a mission, is there a spy watching you? Do they magically give you money out of thin air? If mission givers can give me credit for killing something without being there to watch, then the race should give me credit for killing things without being asked.

I was then told it’s because people were getting huge fame boosts by killing temple guards. Ok, then make it so that npc type doesn’t give fame for killing instead of killing it for everything.

3) Perfect Fame – So what?
This one takes the cake of them all. I have been gone a year and still they have yet to reward people for getting perfect fame. Not even a title. It’s clear that anything above 66 fame is pointless, so why not drop the max fame level to 66?

I really don’t understand the problem here. You can go kill mobs for hours and get xp rewards. You go run boring tasks for days and you get squat.

4) Encyclopedia
A year later, no new entries, that’s pathetic. Ok, so you don’t have time to put the missions in that will make it work. Then either take the thing out or get rid of the mission requirement and just have it where as you kill things you get entries filled in. Or if you do the tasks the entry gets filled in, no rites required. As is, it’s nothing more than a reminder of what the game should have been and never will be.

5) Useless NPC’s
I’m not talking about wandering citizens. I’m talking about npc’s that have a title that do nothing. Tribe chiefs, outpost runners, and whatever else was meant to do something.

6) Outposts
I remember how excited people were. Now they are empty. The reason? They are pointless. Every outpost I have seen comprises of 3-4 useless buildings, one of which isn’t even a building but some absurd drill thing. You can’t create an outpost that would be useful for a guild. Why would anyone fight over rights to a drill?

I hate to say it but I really don’t see Ryzom in any better shape than it was over a year ago. I feel as if they are too busy trying to make themselves unique and different that they forgot what really matters, creating a game the general population will want to play. Instead of spending huge amounts of time on making some absurd outpost system, they could have been working on creating real missions and rites for the encyclopedia. Instead of creating temples that now just sit there with no one caring they could have been working on new areas, even opening up some sky roots areas.

I’m sorry to be harsh like this, but its beyond frustrating to see the game in the same stagnant state it was 14 months ago.
I

[rothimar]

It is my understanding that Ryzom Ring will provide the development team with a much more rapid manner with which to develop content, as well as attract new players to paying subscriptions to fund the development of the rest of what you mentioned.

But I am relatively new and unfamiliar with the developer's follow through. ;)

[dakhound]

I agree with raynes

they aint added much
what they have added isnt complete/well thought out
they have given up on somethings to move onto sparkly thing

still love it tho

[rundll32]

You can’t create an outpost that would be useful for a guild. Why would anyone fight over rights to a drill?


I think 97% of players could answer that one :)

[marct]

Seems you missed all of the posts about most of the things you stated also. :D

It still is a small budget project in hard financial straights. they take much longer than they plan to produce things, and have pared down the team multiple times. It appears they me be doing some of the things that will move the game forward. However, without a mjaor cash infusion, major quick changes will not happen. Even then, it would take some time to ramp up new staff. Some of the things they have been working on will make doing some of the things you mentioned easier to fix.

If they had stopped to fix the things the Ring might be ready next year, A Kitin nest sometime the year after, etc. Are they incredible, no. Are they trying, yes. Are they doing better than most would be in the same situation, I believe so.


About the only thing I would like to see changed is them being able to set a hard date, and meet that hard date. Some management of the Development team at the highest levels is sub-par in my business persons point of view.

[d29565]

*hugs poor raynes* I know how you feel. Maybe things will get better....*shrug*

[martl]

About the only thing I would like to see changed is them being able to set a hard date, and meet that hard date. Some management of the Development team at the highest levels is sub-par in my business persons point of view.
i'm here for ayear now and still loving it...

and as for what you said, i happen to work in a software company.. we also are a small company battling the big fish in the pond, wo have a bigger marketing budget than our gross revenue is.. i have to say i wish *our* product was as stable and mature as Ryzom :) and as for release dates... the art is not to talk too early about coming relesaes, cause something is bound to delay it :) i guess policy is to have r² as good as it can be on release, cause failing that will kill the company.

[rushin]

lol, wb raynes

[ashling]

With the last game I played I'd have liked it alot more if they'd stoped changing it over a year ago! Although then I wouldn't be here and I'm having fun here so :)

[xolghost]

While some others missed that one: Welcome back :)

1) agreed... I didn't even understand why Kami took dappers to join their factional cause, Karavan, OK.. they're there to exploit Atys, but Kami?

2) You never ever got fame for killing bandits (without a mission to do so), I always thought it to be OK that way...
Once upon a time -waaaay before we knew temple guards existed somewhere- there where lots of tribes where you gained easy fame quickly for slaughtering them over and over and everybody was happily dwelling in this weakness, including my serious account's char... It's supposed to be fixed, but I didn't test it.
And.. why gain fame for a mission to kill, say, Rendors?

3) Never thought about that actually... but a real good idea, IMO. Saying so:Suggestion, please forward:
Titles for 100 fame, eg. "True K***** Follower"
Titles for having acquired citizenship, "Citizen of ******"
4) & 5) Might be tied together (we wouldn't know), still: agreed. Especially since twenty-some new rites had been in testing on ATS about a year back... projects either halted or being secretly finished. (Plead for communication, again?)

6) It is the drills.. rather what's coming from them... in effect it's greed, plain and simple :D

Having labored down the numbers, I'd say it is in better shape - technically...
Still, E2, the creation of the temples you mentioned, changed "Life on Atys" so drastically it will hardly ever recover. Whether 'tis good or bad is for every individual him- or herself to judge. Many judged with their feet.
I totally agree that there could've been "more", still the problems Nevrax had might have been one good reason that there isn't now. And "more" itself is and will always be a matter of personal preference... some wanted more PvP, they got it, others want more dancing moves (*g*), they'll have to look towards other dimensions for a while. There was "more", then. Only "more" will never be enough ;)
And please remember that there are Homins out there who always doubted the OP system to be able to be a cure for most or "more" - which it turned out not to be, as the spires will not be either.
Still - anything that's merely added should, by definition, not have the power to change one's Atys experience, anything that's changed propably will. As a matter of fact, what was added in larger dimensions did change Atys - you judge.
I'm still around somehow, so I propably did my judging already.

[archaeos]

1.This is a huge WTF!
This is beyond stupid.
So what?
That’s pathetic.
They are pointless.


2.I hate to say it but I really don’t see Ryzom in any better shape than it was over a year ago.

3.I feel as if they are too busy trying to make themselves unique and different that they forgot what really matters, creating a game the general population will want to play.

4.Instead of spending huge amounts of time on making some absurd outpost system

5.I’m sorry to be harsh like this, but its beyond frustrating to see the game in the same stagnant state it was 14 months ago.
I

Normally I don't react easily...but oh well

1.This is just YOUR personal opinion...If the Devs had an attitude like yours I am sure they would have probably shot themselves through the head.It's easy to complain about stuff you don't like ,but it is way harder to come up with a better idea.

2.You just Love to say it..just admit it...the more public the better..else you could just post a ticket ingame with better ideas.But then again Will your ideas be better and would they satisfy everyone?

3.They are,but they didn't forget.It's hard to find a way between quality and quantity without ruining the game.
Oh and maybe you should just read the forums of the 'general' games a bit,If that is the community u want:filled with flamers,trolls,complaining,whining,well this thread is a nice way to work towards it.

4.People want PvP and wanted something new, well here we go...STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH...Go for the clones and loose originality ?Well again you will have something to whine about...

5.Frustrated?
Sorry mate...There is nothing wrong with airing your opinion ...
But like said before it's easy to bash something ...

But then again ...who am I for not respecting your opinion.
(It could be that u make some good points)
I was just wondering what the point was.
Don't misunderstand me,but if u read your own post,how can u blame someone else of not being constructive...
The best results come from blood,sweat and tears

*edit:I didn't intend to attack u as a person,only just the way of saying things(1),it's just a smack in the face on those who work on it*



-Warm welcome back-
If this reaction could be considered as a flame I humbly excuse myself,and hope they will remove my answer...

[totnkopf]

I left the game in June of 2005, I’ve been back 3 days and I have already said WTF several times. Here is why:

1) Citizenship costs $100K
This is a huge WTF! Why do I have to pay to become a citizen of my own race? I’m a blue guy with this mask genetically sealed to my face, yet I am being told I’m not actually a Zorai until I fork over 100K. I can see if you want to become a citizen of another race, but your own?

2) No fame for killing bandit without a mission.
This is beyond stupid. If I go kill 100’s of a bandit tribe without taking a mission I get no fame. I was told it makes sense as why would you get credit for doing something your not asked to do? And my response to that is how do npcs know you actually do a mission, is there a spy watching you? Do they magically give you money out of thin air? If mission givers can give me credit for killing something without being there to watch, then the race should give me credit for killing things without being asked.

I was then told it’s because people were getting huge fame boosts by killing temple guards. Ok, then make it so that npc type doesn’t give fame for killing instead of killing it for everything.

3) Perfect Fame – So what?
This one takes the cake of them all. I have been gone a year and still they have yet to reward people for getting perfect fame. Not even a title. It’s clear that anything above 66 fame is pointless, so why not drop the max fame level to 66?

I really don’t understand the problem here. You can go kill mobs for hours and get xp rewards. You go run boring tasks for days and you get squat.

4) Encyclopedia
A year later, no new entries, that’s pathetic. Ok, so you don’t have time to put the missions in that will make it work. Then either take the thing out or get rid of the mission requirement and just have it where as you kill things you get entries filled in. Or if you do the tasks the entry gets filled in, no rites required. As is, it’s nothing more than a reminder of what the game should have been and never will be.

5) Useless NPC’s
I’m not talking about wandering citizens. I’m talking about npc’s that have a title that do nothing. Tribe chiefs, outpost runners, and whatever else was meant to do something.

6) Outposts
I remember how excited people were. Now they are empty. The reason? They are pointless. Every outpost I have seen comprises of 3-4 useless buildings, one of which isn’t even a building but some absurd drill thing. You can’t create an outpost that would be useful for a guild. Why would anyone fight over rights to a drill?

I hate to say it but I really don’t see Ryzom in any better shape than it was over a year ago. I feel as if they are too busy trying to make themselves unique and different that they forgot what really matters, creating a game the general population will want to play. Instead of spending huge amounts of time on making some absurd outpost system, they could have been working on creating real missions and rites for the encyclopedia. Instead of creating temples that now just sit there with no one caring they could have been working on new areas, even opening up some sky roots areas.
I agree with ya, Raynes, for the most part. I do get the feeling that Nevrax is attempting to add new and shiny things when the game itself isn't even finished. You can't start building on the base if its full of holes. The temples do sit there doing very little, but I think the event that took place that allowed us to build them was kept a lot of people around. There was some new content that was complex, had new items, etc. It showed that Nevrax was still actually thinking about the future and provided hope that we would be seeing even more new stuff soon (tm)
Many of the systems they have/will introduced require a large player population. Things like OPs for example were never meant to just sit in the hands of one guild from the time they were introduced. How long has Melinoe or OotN had their OPs? (not picking on you guys, just the only ones I can think of at the moment... have the flu :p) With a large population they were would actually be some swaying of who had what when.
Same with Spires. They are designed for a large population of players where it would sway during the day who had what area. As it stands now, it'll be as stagnant as OPs are.

Anyway, back to the OP. I agree with ya Raynes. The game has changed very little from a year ago. Only the population has changed and that wasn't in Nevrax's favor

[raynes]

Normally I don't react easily...but oh well

1.This is just YOUR personal opinion...If the Devs had an attitude like yours I am sure they would have probably shot themselves through the head.It's easy to complain about stuff you don't like ,but it is way harder to come up with a better idea.

2.You just Love to say it..just admit it...the more public the better..else you could just post a ticket ingame with better ideas.But then again Will your ideas be better and would they satisfy everyone?

3.They are,but they didn't forget.It's hard to find a way between quality and quantity without ruining the game.
Oh and maybe you should just read the forums of the 'general' games a bit,If that is the community u want:filled with flamers,trolls,complaining,whining,well this thread is a nice way to work towards it.

4.People want PvP and wanted something new, well here we go...STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH...Go for the clones and loose originality ?Well again you will have something to whine about...

5.Frustrated?
Sorry mate...There is nothing wrong with airing your opinion ...
But like said before it's easy to bash something ...

But then again ...who am I for not respecting your opinion.I was just wondering what the point was...


-Warm welcome back-
If this reaction could be considered as a flame I humbly excuse myself,and hope they will remove my answer...


Excuse me, I have suggested ideas long ago. One of them was that people with perfect fame get something. If you do a search on my name in the forums you will see that I complained about it in 2004. I even asked that people with perfect fame be given a title. I don't bother submitting a ticket because that does zero good.

And BTW, number 1 is not only my opinion, but several people I have talked to in game agree. What is a better idea? Just like I said, you don't pay to become a citizen of your own race, only of other races. There is nothing logical to making a player pay large sums of money to become what they already are.

You want suggestions?

Lets tackle perfect fame shall we?
1) Give a title for reaching max fame. Like say Loyal Kami Follower
2) Fix the secret Kami oasis so that it's an area with amazing mats, only accessable by those with perfect fame.
3) Make it so that when you have perfect fame with a group, when you walk into a camp the guards say something. For example lets say I have perfect Icon Worshippers Fame. I walk into their camp the guards say "Hail brother Raynes, we are honored you have come to pay us a visit".
4) Give each tribe a speciality skill. When you get perfect fame you get taught that skill. Using the Icon Worshippers again. They are a crafting tribe. You create a skill that makes yubo fur double strength when used in crafting.

[grimjim]

Lets tackle perfect fame shall we?
1) Give a title for reaching max fame. Like say Loyal Kami Follower
2) Fix the secret Kami oasis so that it's an area with amazing mats, only accessable by those with perfect fame.
3) Make it so that when you have perfect fame with a group, when you walk into a camp the guards say something. For example lets say I have perfect Icon Worshippers Fame. I walk into their camp the guards say "Hail brother Raynes, we are honored you have come to pay us a visit".
4) Give each tribe a speciality skill. When you get perfect fame you get taught that skill. Using the Icon Worshippers again. They are a crafting tribe. You create a skill that makes yubo fur double strength when used in crafting.

Titles seem to be permanent, so basing them on a fluctuating thing like fame may not be doable.

Possible, but you'd have to mirror it (but then the Matis Alliance have Nexus to play in...)

Again, fluctuating fame and not a high priority.

This sounds like ency mission gifts, just at higher fame. Hopefully we'll see things like that with more ency missions.

I did wonder how long it'd take for your mask to slip :)

[rushin]

when did 100k become a huge sum of money? its 8 teleports, or mek food for a day, or a cheap vest. We don't pay taxes so I'd consider paying for citizenship a reasonable idea.

not even going to think about replying to anything else, its been done over and over and over again. You came back because of the Ring as far as i can gather, so i assume you are a creative type. Go create, be happy, make us all cool places to explore and experience. Whinging the same old, old whinge on the forums is not needed surely?

[andrecyr]

Hugz Raynes. wb. :)

Amcyr - Out of Cavern
Arncyr - noob

[jamela]

Don't forget, Raynes, that little development team has managed to produce Ruins of Silan and revamp the UI a little, and I think those changes have done more to revitalise the playerbase than anything else they could have done; this had to be their top priority under their financial hardship. Similarly, R² will undoubtedly raise more revenue as well as streamline content creation; they're giving themselves time to breathe and looking to the future.

I tend to agree with all your points except the citizenship - you could see the dapper as giving a piece of your soul to support your allegiance, you could see it as taxation - but then I'd expect some services in exchange.

[sprite]

Oh I'd missed threads like these :)

[iphdrunk]

Don't forget, Raynes, that little development team has managed to produce Ruins of Silan and revamp the UI a little, and I think those changes have done more to revitalise the playerbase than anything else they could have done; this had to be their top priority under their financial hardship. Similarly, R² will undoubtedly raise more revenue as well as streamline content creation; they're giving themselves time to breathe and looking to the future.

I tend to agree with all your points except the citizenship - you could see the dapper as giving a piece of your soul to support your allegiance, you could see it as taxation - but then I'd expect some services in exchange.

As much as I agree with your post, I'd like to raise some concerns as well:

* How long did it take them to release Ruins of Silan? it has been stated that it was not (or at least fully) developped with the Ring. Suggestions were raised by the players concerning the old noob islands more than one year ago -- acknowdledged by GMs and (indirectly) by devs -- but more importantly, even with reduced manpower, how do you explain a delay of more than 6 months with regard to the first announced date?. The argument of "it is a small company with a small budget and small ..." is valid, yes, and explains imho the huge difference between "raw work" produced in periods 2002-2004 and 2004-2006, given the staff that was laid off, but to a point. It cannot justify everything, and unfortunately the line does not end with "..for a small fee", but a fee that aligns with alternatives.

* I would not say these changes revitalized the playerbase (at least, not the exisiting one), but for those who "out of curiosity" created alts to play in Silan. Likewise, interface changes had little impact on existing players (or at least some I have talked too, other than ctrl is now shift and a is now b). I agree that, as much as old players may not fully benefit from those changes, they were almost required for a sustainable game.

* It is still early to judge on the cost/revenue model for a feature such as the Ring, specially knowing that, for the moment, it is not possible to pay for hosting scenarios. It seems clear that the ring is also giving a reason to new players to come to Ryzom, but to what point? what is going to dramatically change to justify a change of the development mode/ratio/etc.?

"Wait and see", "soon(tm)" "let's hope that" are sentences that come to mind.

Don't get me wrong, Ryzom is a fair deal, "take it or leave it" to some, but the same way one may not agree with a player unfairly bashing the game, stating that there is no room for improvement and that the rate of new features and additions is "as good as it could be" does not correspond to reality (comment not aimed at you, but in general). Is Ryzom a good game? yes, but I'd rather hear Raynes complaining about what (s)he does like that reading through 10 posts of "woooot, great !!!!11!one1" everytime a patch is released fixing a bug that should have not gone live.

From my own personal point of view, and my expectations, yes, I agree with Raynes that the game has not changed much, and at least, I would like to see some things change including, (but not limited to, as legalese says), honest and frequent communication. For the moment, let's just enjoy the game as is, try the ring features and hope judge gives Nevrax some air. Then, personally, once the ring goes live, I am eagerly awaiting for the Kitin Lair.

[riveit]

I tend to agree with all your points except the citizenship - you could see the dapper as giving a piece of your soul to support your allegiance, you could see it as taxation - but then I'd expect some services in exchange.

I sympathize with the poor Zorai government. They provide hundreds of highly paid guards, put up signs, keep the streets clean, the shops and buildings are maintained, etc. and the citizens begrudge them a measley 100k citizenship fee! A world where a government runs without taxes? THAT is the definition of a fantasy world. :D



Creative tax mechanisms could serve as a sink of excess cash.

[rothimar]

Creative tax mechanisms could serve as a sink of excess cash.

From what I've seen and read about games that have tried this, it usually fails and costs the game a chunk of players.

While I love realism... not sure if I am *that* into it. :D

[khyle]

Creative tax mechanisms could serve as a sink of excess cash. From what I've seen and read about games that have tried this, it usually fails and costs the game a chunk of players.

While I love realism... not sure if I am *that* into it. :D
It probably depends on the interpretation of "creative" and "excess" by the developers, then ;)

[xenofur]

(i'll only address the "lack of changes" part)

Raynes, i run a website, about 7k-10k lines of perl. (Mind you, i like packing my code tight.) Recently i had to do a major overhaul, because the main code itself was only fit for one board, but i had a lot and it became troublesome to make sure all of these got the changes i made on the codebase. So i changed it in a way that kept the way the user accessed stuff (url://board/) the same, but actually only ran on one copy of the main code, which was in (url://). That process took me 4 weeks and i'm still not done. I spent about 3-4 hours per day, and a lot more on the weekends, not a single thing changed for the users, not a single thing changed for the admins, all that was changed was the structure and the handling behind it.
The same thing happened here. They merged the servers, made them interoperable and added on the ring, which is to say the least a f*cking truckload of work, especially when you do it without actually interrupting the gameplay experience. Additionally they had to write the bulk of the ring itself, which you will agree is no mean feat as well as adding on a unified beginner island with a full tutorial.

So, even if you don't perceive any changes, does not mean that there were none.

[raynes]

I sympathize with the poor Zorai government. They provide hundreds of highly paid guards, put up signs, keep the streets clean, the shops and buildings are maintained, etc. and the citizens begrudge them a measley 100k citizenship fee! A world where a government runs without taxes? THAT is the definition of a fantasy world. :D

Creative tax mechanisms could serve as a sink of excess cash.

Actually if you wanted it like the real world you would tax outposts (property taxes) and put a sales tax on all items.

[rothimar]

Actually if you wanted it like the real world you would tax outposts (property taxes) and put a sales tax on all items.

Only if we get to jump the tax collectors... lol

[g00st]

yep raynzers ye've picked up on the same stuffage again

that and meh 98 zorai fame got whacked to 50 XD!!!

seems mr nevraxers needs too look at more player payoff in interesting stuffs..

[acridiel]

yep raynzers ye've picked up on the same stuffage again

that and meh 98 zorai fame got whacked to 50 XD!!!

seems mr nevraxers needs too look at more player payoff in interesting stuffs..

Well, who told you to click -> become neutral?
If you hadn´t done that your fame would still be 98 Zorai.
Happend to me too with 100 Matis and Karavan Fame, but I don´t blame Nevrax, I blame the idiot who told me to click and myself for beliveing him. :p

But Okay, it MUST be the Games fault for actually changing a thing, wait...
nothing has changed... Oh...it has... what now? *LOL*


Acridiel

[vguerin]

Always good to see another old time fanatic (even if you are Kami scum) Raynes... You have contributed more than the glee club ever will but will be fighting an uphill battle here. Like me and others, you will have to resign yourself to a shell of the game that was envisioned and the limitations we are left with as well as "undone" things. If you can live with them (as we all obviously chose to do by resubbing, even tho not satisfied) then stick around. Most of those disagreeing with you don't know what the game that was presented as to us was... just play and enjoy, you won't get any mileage even with valid grievances. We are invisible, thats why there are no responses to anything...

[raynes]

Always good to see another old time fanatic (even if you are Kami scum) Raynes... You have contributed more than the glee club ever will but will be fighting an uphill battle here. Like me and others, you will have to resign yourself to a shell of the game that was envisioned and the limitations we are left with as well as "undone" things. If you can live with them (as we all obviously chose to do by resubbing, even tho not satisfied) then stick around. Most of those disagreeing with you don't know what the game that was presented as to us was... just play and enjoy, you won't get any mileage even with valid grievances. We are invisible, thats why there are no responses to anything...

I know. And yes it will probably result in nothing at all. At least I know I have expressed my frustrations and not just sat back like everything is wonderful.

On the flip side, at least with the Ring I can vent my frustration with the devs by making content I feel they should have been doing all along (even though I can't make the Kami fight the Karavan grrrrrrr).

[rothimar]

Too bad Nevrax doesn't have the budget that some of the larger gaming companies have... then maybe you'd already have what you want.

Of course... discouraging newer players isn't going to help the revenue stream much.

/sigh

[raynes]

Too bad Nevrax doesn't have the budget that some of the larger gaming companies have... then maybe you'd already have what you want.

Of course... discouraging newer players isn't going to help the revenue stream much.

/sigh

If a new player is discouraged by one post, I highly doubt that they had planned to play the game long anyway.

[iphdrunk]

Of course... discouraging newer players isn't going to help the revenue stream much.

/sigh

Of course, discouraging new players will not help the revenue stream. But things are not black or white. There are a few factors:

Raising concerns (e.g. "complaining", a.k.a. "whining") is a form of feedback, agreed, as long as it is constructive and done well. Any developer will tell you that (I'm not wanting to sound preachy), and Nevrax explicitly stated that. Language (as many other things) shows cultural aspects and I saw huge differences in the way different communities express. I can either say "this sucks" or "this needs improvement" but the message remains the same. I'm sorry, when there are no negative messages I personally do think something is wrong, or even that loving players are started to not care anymore.

False "adulation" does not help either, like posting "wow great! Amazing work" when a patch goes live that fixes the swapped Armillo "stam/sap" boost incorrect messages... or saying "great event!!!" when NPCs came, cut&pasted a speech and left leaving no room for interaction to RolePlaying characters, not answering questions, etc...

Honesty. If a friend asks *me* to comment on Ryzom, I will, of course subjectively, give my thoughts on the game. I will raise good things and bad things, and give direct answers. If he asks me "are there nice quests in Ryzom?", I am not going to give sneaky answers trying to highlight other aspects of the game. Maybe my friend already knows that it *is* an open world, that live events are nice, whatever, to that specific question I'll answer "no" -- and I *may* mention that, apparently, Ring should streamline content addition and new quests will be created--. If a long term player (miss ya, Sinful!) asks me "is there anything new in Ryzom since i left 9 months ago?", knowing his playstyle and background, I'll say "no", not giving him a speech about the niceties of Silan. And should I have to write about it, it will not be a "Press Release Article" but (exaggeration for dramatic purposes) lying, hiding, or contourning the truth, giving indirect answers to give a biased image of the game, be to get more players or for whatever, is not in some players priorities.

Sorry for the long post. Maybe I sound bitter, preachy or condescendant, maybe having played it for long is the reason it is wearing off. But I do thnk that I have the (minor) right to expect new features and updates, and hearing again and again the "soon(tm)" the "small company" the "it's coming" and "look at what we plan to release, but not yet". What do you want me to say?

Yours truly,

[rothimar]

If a new player is discouraged by one post, I highly doubt that they had planned to play the game long anyway.

It's difficult to say. Someone judging whether or not they want to pay for a game sees someone who has a history with the game bashing it with someone else posting a statement that the players are never listened to, might deter people from upgrading from the free trial.

I suppose I don't understand why someone would stay with a game they are apparently so frustrated with. I would think such a player would find a game they are happy with instead. I don't want to get into a flame war or bicker back and forth about this, but I just thought it might be worth pointing out that complaining your complaints aren't listened to seems like you *want* to damage whatever impression people have of Nevrax, or the developers.

There is plenty I would like to see finished/updated in Ryzom based on my experiences with the game and the materials I have read concerning past development delays. But I also understand that development costs money, and without the heavy hitting budgets some of the large game publishers have, it takes time.

Nevrax doesn't have the budget that SoE and Blizzard Entertainment have, but Nevrax does have a game I would much rather play. With a bit of luck, R2 will provide the funding needed to more rapidly develop the content which will improve the game beyond its current state, and perhaps you will get some of what you want out of it.

In the meantime, you might as well enjoy what parts you do like, otherwise, what's the point?

I don't mean this to come across as confrontational, just an observation. :)

[raynes]

It's difficult to say. Someone judging whether or not they want to pay for a game sees someone who has a history with the game bashing it with someone else posting a statement that the players are never listened to, might deter people from upgrading from the free trial.

I suppose I don't understand why someone would stay with a game they are apparently so frustrated with. I would think such a player would find a game they are happy with instead. I don't want to get into a flame war or bicker back and forth about this, but I just thought it might be worth pointing out that complaining your complaints aren't listened to seems like you *want* to damage whatever impression people have of Nevrax, or the developers.

There is plenty I would like to see finished/updated in Ryzom based on my experiences with the game and the materials I have read concerning past development delays. But I also understand that development costs money, and without the heavy hitting budgets some of the large game publishers have, it takes time.

Nevrax doesn't have the budget that SoE and Blizzard Entertainment have, but Nevrax does have a game I would much rather play. With a bit of luck, R2 will provide the funding needed to more rapidly develop the content which will improve the game beyond its current state, and perhaps you will get some of what you want out of it.

In the meantime, you might as well enjoy what parts you do like, otherwise, what's the point?

I don't mean this to come across as confrontational, just an observation. :)

It's really simple, I came back after a year long absence (not counting the week I popped in sometime ago) and I say things that made me want to smash my head on a desk. So instead of smashing, I posted my thoughts.

Are there parts of Ryzom that I love? Of course. I had an im conversation about the animal and kami models in game. I probably talked over an hour how really incredible the Kitin were. I sent him a link to this kami picture:
http://www.ryzom.com/images/lore/screen_kami2_800_600.jpg
Then went on to tell him I made a whole village of them running around laughing and wagging their tales. He even comented on how much excitement I spoke about the game.

And of course I am paying again, so there must be something worth playing for. That does not mean that I shouldn't express my dislike for certain aspects of the game.

[iphdrunk]

I suppose I don't understand why someone would stay with a game they are apparently so frustrated with. I would think such a player would find a game they are happy with instead.

With all due respect, this argument, while valid, is imho shortsighted. Again, "take it or leave it" or "why you play if you don't like it?" can be explained in a gazilion ways, and does not take into account lots of things as invested time, lack of alternatives, overall global satisfaction but specific frustrations, without mentioning that it is a fact that MMRPGs do crate addiction and, as always and natural, "love for the game" wears off (including myself)

In average, I would not think a single player feels the same after a few weeks of playing, rushing to play every afternoon and getting the shakes while at work, and the same player after a few years of play. Finally, I should not rehash that (although this "policy" has changed a lot in the last months) there have been huge differences between what was promised and what was delivered -- maybe our fault for not being able to see the trees while being shown the forest? -- and some players stuck to that promise, and waited for it to be delivered. At least, this aspect has improved: there are no longer promises of aging&children, new mounts, subaquatic mobs, diplomatic outposts, guild missions, meaningful fame and tribes, angels and demons, 5% of Atys shown, 99 layers of Prime Roots....

[rothimar]

I completely agree that you should discuss what you dislike. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feedback. I suppose it was the direction the thread seemed to be taking which prompted me to post.

I didn't mean to disrespect you, or invalidate your concerns. I guess it was the tone things seemed to be adopting which I believe newer players could find discouraging, especially since you are a veteran of the game.

No hard feelings intended... hopefully none taken.


It's really simple, I came back after a year long absence (not counting the week I popped in sometime ago) and I say things that made me want to smash my head on a desk. So instead of smashing, I posted my thoughts.

Are there parts of Ryzom that I love? Of course. I had an im conversation about the animal and kami models in game. I probably talked over an hour how really incredible the Kitin were. I sent him a link to this kami picture:
http://www.ryzom.com/images/lore/screen_kami2_800_600.jpg
Then went on to tell him I made a whole village of them running around laughing and wagging their tales. He even comented on how much excitement I spoke about the game.

And of course I am paying again, so there must be something worth playing for. That does not mean that I shouldn't express my dislike for certain aspects of the game.

[rothimar]

When someone begins posting things like "shell of the game we were promised", I find it hard to believe that many people wouldn't wonder why the poster is still here if it's that bad.

I can understand the frustration of a customer not getting features that were promised by the company developing the purchased product. I've been in sales/marketing for 13+ years now. But I can tell you first hand, a client of mine that presents an issue in a relatively respectful manner will get attended to before one who calls me screaming.

Just food for thought, and again, I am not trying to step on toes... just trying to offer a different perspective.


With all due respect, this argument, while valid, is imho shortsighted. Again, "take it or leave it" or "why you play if you don't like it?" can be explained in a gazilion ways, and does not take into account lots of things as invested time, lack of alternatives, overall global satisfaction but specific frustrations, without mentioning that it is a fact that MMRPGs do crate addiction and, as always and natural, "love for the game" wears off (including myself)

In average, I would not think a single player feels the same after a few weeks of playing, rushing to play every afternoon and getting the shakes while at work, and the same player after a few years of play. Finally, I should not rehash that (although this "policy" has changed a lot in the last months) there have been huge differences between what was promised and what was delivered -- maybe our fault for not being able to see the trees while being shown the forest? -- and some players stuck to that promise, and waited for it to be delivered. At least, this aspect has improved: there are no longer promises of aging&children, new mounts, subaquatic mobs, diplomatic outposts, guild missions, meaningful fame and tribes, angels and demons, 5% of Atys shown, 99 layers of Prime Roots....

[xolghost]

I suppose I don't understand why someone would stay with a game they are apparently so frustrated with. I would think such a player would find a game they are happy with instead.
Joyfully beating on Anissa's drum, let me quote Aristotle:
"The whole is more than the sum of its parts."

This is oh so true for Ryzom, it seems...
Everyone of us oldtimers does have his wishes, complaints and even frustrations - and sometimes we express them or take a break.
Still, Atys manages to keep us hooked, the good parts obviously outweighing the bad ones leaving hardly any comparable alternatives in sight. I'd even say that Atys influenced our perception of MMORPGs as if it were our first.
Can a greater compliment for a piece of entertainment software exist?

[iphdrunk]

Joyfully beating on Anissa's drum, let me quote Aristotle:
"The whole is more than the sum of its parts."

And let me add a new entry in the "you know you play Ryzom too much" when you read Arispotle, think about the "shard" and the "street" and search the lore instead of thinking about that RL philosopher....

[g00st]

Well, who told you to click -> become neutral?
If you hadn´t done that your fame would still be 98 Zorai.
Happend to me too with 100 Matis and Karavan Fame, but I don´t blame Nevrax, I blame the idiot who told me to click and myself for beliveing him. :p

But Okay, it MUST be the Games fault for actually changing a thing, wait...
nothing has changed... Oh...it has... what now? *LOL*


Acridiel

oi who said the ghuissinator was blaming the zom....and i dunny become neutral i be still undetermined yet i got whackeded so i says they gaves up on meh.

anywho some yal be uber happy some yal be thinking some ya just be living oer leveling but i was sayings small stuff can keeps homins active.....

[vguerin]

Finally, I should not rehash that (although this "policy" has changed a lot in the last months) there have been huge differences between what was promised and what was delivered -- maybe our fault for not being able to see the trees while being shown the forest? -- and some players stuck to that promise, and waited for it to be delivered. At least, this aspect has improved: there are no longer promises of aging&children, new mounts, subaquatic mobs, diplomatic outposts, guild missions, meaningful fame and tribes, angels and demons, 5% of Atys shown, 99 layers of Prime Roots....That is just a hint of what the young homin has limited or no knowledge about and exactly the type things I was referring to. Those of us that beta'd and stood in one place doing the same action for a whole Atys day to make a report were doing it because we saw a greater vision. The writing of DDC had captivated me and took me away from all my other planned games to immerse myself in Atys. The intelligent plants, seeds, saga (different lands, 8 chapters over 8 years) and how it was intended were thrilling. Much of it is not here, the saga remains on Atys and there is absolutely nothing showing on the horizen to lead us to believe we will ever see any of those things. While we should be in chapter 3 and in another land we are still walking the same paths we started at level one, 2 years ago yesterday.

Is Ryzom bad, absolutely not... I hold my enemies in nearly the same regard as my allies IG because it's the people that make this game worth resubbing for. I miss many of the folks that left over the lack of additions we expected or poor implementation of things that were added. I can myself see some of their reasons, but so far the lack of hope has not got me to give up.

A big part of any game that Rothimar is overlooking because he still see's a shiny new car is that while appealing to new folks is important, it matters not if you're not keeping people around long. Once the "new car" smell goes away, you have to consider a new ride or finding something more to get out of your old one.

[totnkopf]

Always good to see another old time fanatic (even if you are Kami scum) Raynes... You have contributed more than the glee club ever will but will be fighting an uphill battle here. Like me and others, you will have to resign yourself to a shell of the game that was envisioned and the limitations we are left with as well as "undone" things. If you can live with them (as we all obviously chose to do by resubbing, even tho not satisfied) then stick around. Most of those disagreeing with you don't know what the game that was presented as to us was... just play and enjoy, you won't get any mileage even with valid grievances. We are invisible, thats why there are no responses to anything...
Brutal honesty right there.

[rothimar]

Well, let me ask you this...

Do you believe the issues with development are due to an uncaring or lazy development staff? Or do you believe the issue is financial?

And more to the point... what can be done to resolve the situation?

I have read many of the older posts on the forums here, I have discussed the situation with a few veteran players, and from what I can determine, it is most likely a case of development budget constraints due to limited revenue intake, and inflated marketing budgets of competing game publishers.

Any ideas?

Ryzom, regardless of the development history, has extreme potential. The community, for the most part, is amazing. If this game means so much to some of you... how do you think the issues which bother some of you can be rectified?

[kuroari]

Ok, wow i just read all the pages in this thread -something i'venot done in a WHILE and its probably because i had a peanut-butter cookie, red-bull, twix, red-berry passion tea, and PIXIE STICKS all in about an hour - about 3 hours ago - and my sugar-high is only now dying

*blinks rapidly and takes another breath*

Raynes - i read your first post and went "Oh God, another bashing thread - WONDERFUL" but , reading on, i spose i began to understand ya a bit more -

i think i can consider myself an old-timer now (having done the betas, but arriving a year late for retail) and i understand the lack of changes - but its true about the tight budget and all that - not enough develpors and lots of work being done behind-the-scenes ... but also i mean jeez, the RING isnt exactly a 'small feature' and its main purpose i think is a bit vague.. is it a way to allow players to create their own worlds/scenarios... or is it actually the new tools Devs can use to create new content efficeintly, quickly, reliably, and EASILY - and are just letting us play with said tools?

i'm not sure to answer for said question, but either way i think we are going to be attacked by new content over the next few months - with the Kitin lair bieng only the first of many. maybe the content will come from devs, maybe it will come from players - but look at it this way, in only a few months, we got the new noob island (RoS) , the Ring, and Kitin lair - all new completly done and promising upgrades! -RoS was a HUGE hit , even with the issues brought up by many others already. Alpha/Beta-Testers tell us the Ring will be great as well, and the Kitin Lair is looking VERY fun :)

so, bash away for now - but i think we can easily wave away said bashing as 'getting it off the chest' bashing - UNTIL AFTER A FEW MONTHS OF R2.


-just my two cents (and quoting Aristotle+mixing with ryzom deserves a WHOOT!)

[grimjim]

Here's what I think happened, just IMO of course.

Ryzom already is very unconventional. The appearance and lore of the game is unique, it was - and is - always going to be more of a niche game. There are things that were apparently there - or tested - in beta that aren't in the main game and I don't understand why particularly, sittable furniture and so on, but as with many MMOs Ryzom suffered from being shoved out the door too early and as with those other earlybird games pretty much everything done since then has been reaction and putting out fires.

Problem 1
Ryzom came out, was pushed out the door, at the same time as WoW and EQ2. While it was predictable that this would have smushed Ryzom's uptake (especially with an early-released product) I don't think anyone appreciated quite what a phenomenon WoW would turn out to be. In the long term it may be a good thing, training wheels for new MMO players, some of whom will come to Ryzom. Nevertheless it didn't help that Ryzom was a tad buggy and unpolished when pushed out the door.

Problem 2
Patch one, intended to be a fix for a lot of the niggling problems and gameplay issues with combat was horribly, horribly misjudged and wiped out a huge amount of the playerbase. This compounded the reactive nature of all the changes made since but even though they fixed it within a couple of weeks it was too late and set the stage for later problems.

Problem 3
The server merge. Again, short term thinking. It certainly saved money in the short term and created a more populous and appealing server for new players it has built a ton of long term problems into the English server. The US and European gaming cultures ARE broadly different, the timezone issue and cultural biases in faction selection have caused problems and now everyone's too entangled with each other to seperate again. Another example of reactive, short-term emergency thinking.

Problem 4
Episode 2 - Another misjudging of the playerbase and the needs of the game. While executed MUCH better the sudden and brutal introduction of wholesale PvP was like unleashing Godzilla on the Smurf village. Unexpected and devastating. Where patch 1 killed off a large quantity of players, Episode 2 killed off a lot of quality players. The very cooperative, friendly and RP/Community oriented culture that had sprung up, self sustaining, maintaining and probably keeping Ryzom alive was torn apart by the only new 'content' for ages. The supposed maturity of the community shattered as selfish PvPers emerged to exploit the new mechanics and went crazy, there was no role for neutrals, the Kami were presented as hypocrits, Tryton looked weak and ineffective and there was no truly peaceful way to participate.

Problem 5
The outposts. Again this appears to have been short term and reactive thinking, changing outposts from the vision presented to replace them with a faction war by proxy, only involving PvP and carrying on from Episode 2. Instead of what they could have been the OPs were replaced with rather conventional resource battlegrounds, the similarities with AOs 'Notum Wars' and Jessica's role in both have been noted before. Turning this into a faction war item has also thrown the imbalance between the factions into sharp relief, it is not entirely numerical as part of the problem lies in cultural distinctions between those who choose to play Kami and those who choose to play Karavan (and those who play neutral) but there is an undeniable imbalance.

Problem(?) 6
Ruins of Silan. Actually, this isn't a problem per se, but it has problems. If anyone listened to that recent podcast you can tell that even an experienced game reviewer, who has talked with people in universe and talked to guilds has come away with several, key, false impressions of the mainland. IMO Silan also furthers the shift in playerbase culture already started by Episode 2 and Ouposts.

Problem(?) 7
Ryzom Ring represents (finally) a return to less conventional content and some of the vision that made Ryzom so appealing to its original, sidelined playerbase. Hopefully it'll bring a lot of them back since it provides a way to play without involving oneself in the faction war and PvP and of being creative. While I understand the idea of releasing a simple version and expanding later the previous rate of game expansion tends to make one wary of putting much faith in the R2 system being expanded and completed too early. There are also problems that have been noted by others in that providing a toolset and then restricting people's creativity with that rules set is like giving them a broken pencil. Things like not being able to make animals 'speak' or not being able to fight the Kami or Karavan in scenarios seem minor things but every time someone tries to use the tools and runs into something that they can't do the percieved value drops considerably. Especially when these things seem to be down to arbitrary decisions rather than mechanics. One answer might be the difference between 'strict' and 'loose' scenarios that was previously mentioned.

Future Problems
The Kitin nest and the spires represent conventional content again. The kitin nest is a dungeon and raid scenario, however it is dressed up. This is another 'conventional' game addition and appears to consist of 'phat lewt' which could undermine the crafter economy in the same way the shield problem and Aen armour have - though the bandit bosses appear to be all but abandoned as an idea.

The spires represent a sort of Realm Vs Realm combat overlay but also restrict player movement and freedom as presented. This is another conventional addition (RvR) and further drives the playerbase in a direction counter to that which existed initially.

It will be, perhaps, most interesting to see what's announced next and whether it shows a return to original values (like R2) or a continuance of the populist philosophy.

Analysis
Most of the last two years has been reactive on Ryzom's part down to a not-so-good and poorly timed launch. Much of the initial time appears to have been spent making the basic game actually work properly live and since then most of the additions and changes have been attempts to grab back players by pursuing the populist WoW playing crowd with standardised game additions, PvP, outposts etc. Of these measures only Silan has really met with acclaim and has had the positive and desired effect, it is too early to tell what impact R2 has had or is having and both things still have reservations about them. It may be that success with Silan and R2 will allow Nevrax to go back more to the original vision once again but then that may not be wise if the playerbase has shifted that much towards mainstream players.

Opinion
While the shift to populism may have been essential for the financial survival of Ryzom I cannot help but feel that it has all been short-mid term reactive thinking rather than being good decisions for the long term survival of the game. It seems to me, evidenced by the number of ex SWG players that turn up here, that Ryzom's main appeal is still towards the niche of the RPer/Community oriented players who appreciate Ryzom's quirkiness of lore and more open ended nature. IMO the game would be better served working on story elements and episodes, invasions and adding RP/Community content to appeal to and enable that demographic - which tends to be much more long-term loyal to a game than the main, WoW playing demographic. I believe the playerbase would get far more out of meaningful big events, RP props, housing, different mounts, clothing/armour and yes, even dancing/entertainment than it will from raids and other conventional content.

IMO Ryzom can't compete with 'the big boys' if it tries to take the populist route, there simply isn't the manpower or financing. It can compete by being more creative, innovative and quirky and supporting the player demographic that was more prevalent before Ep2.

Ryzom, despite some of its lacks, is hands down the best MMO for roleplaying in existence right now and also has far and away the best community, despite the slow shift. If I were in charge I'd play to Ryzom's strengths and I _hope_ that R2 represents a move back in that direction.

Oops, long post, but I love analysing this stuff :)
(And to think I'm considered a 'whiner' here and a 'fanboi' on MMORPG.com)

[raynes]

Well, let me ask you this...

Do you believe the issues with development are due to an uncaring or lazy development staff? Or do you believe the issue is financial?

And more to the point... what can be done to resolve the situation?

I have read many of the older posts on the forums here, I have discussed the situation with a few veteran players, and from what I can determine, it is most likely a case of development budget constraints due to limited revenue intake, and inflated marketing budgets of competing game publishers.

Any ideas?

Ryzom, regardless of the development history, has extreme potential. The community, for the most part, is amazing. If this game means so much to some of you... how do you think the issues which bother some of you can be rectified?

Part of my original post goes into what I think the problem is. Granted I was frustrated so it probably wasn't very clear.

I don't think the developers are lazy. I also don't think they are uncaring for the game. I actually think they work hard and they care deeply about their product. The issue is that I don't think the devs care about the general mmo players wants and needs, nor do I think they care about the general ryzom players wishes. I'm not saying they don't care if the Ryzom players are happy, I am saying they have what they want to develop in mind. Those things are highly experimental and never been tried before in mmo's. They do their best to try to make Ryzom players happy with what they have in mind. The problem is that what they have in mind (like the turn based outposts) simply will not make players happy no matter what you do with them.

So how do you fix this? As much as many current Ryzom players will cringe when I say this, I am going to. Make parts of Ryzom more like other MMO's. I don't mean make classes and dump the basics that make Ryzom really great. I mean putting in a good mission/quest system. I mean creating some raid areas. I mean putting in bosses that actually drop more than mats (like the few tribe bosses you have out there). Make Ryzom more like the starter islands.

Come up with some new raid events. Have Jena send Karavan troops to wipe out the Kami. Have the Kitin kill the Karavan under order for the Kami. Do stuff that will make a huge splash.

I do not beleive budget has anything to do with the problems Ryzom has. In my opinion it's the dev choices of the things they choose to develop and the things they leave unfinished.

[grimjim]

So how do you fix this? As much as many current Ryzom players will cringe when I say this, I am going to. Make parts of Ryzom more like other MMO's. I don't mean make classes and dump the basics that make Ryzom really great. I mean putting in a good mission/quest system. I mean creating some raid areas. I mean putting in bosses that actually drop more than mats (like the few tribe bosses you have out there). Make Ryzom more like the starter islands.

Come up with some new raid events. Have Jena send Karavan troops to wipe out the Kami. Have the Kitin kill the Karavan under order for the Kami. Do stuff that will make a huge splash.

I do not beleive budget has anything to do with the problems Ryzom has. In my opinion it's the dev choices of the things they choose to develop and the things they leave unfinished.

As you can see above, I came to precisely the opposite conclusion. I think chasing the general demographic has profoundly harmed Ryzom and resulted in a loss of vision.

Quests - completely inappropriate for Ryzom in standard format and ideas. R2 will allow players to make and present 'quests' which fills this gap up quite a bit and will also allow for more specialised events, IMO. This is all to the good. The closest thing would be more ency missions, which we all hope are forthcoming I'm sure.

Raids - Completely inappropriate again, but you're getting your wish with the Kitin lair. I'm holding my breath to see how it's executed but 'phat lewt' will annihilate much of what makes the game work.

Bosses - See above.

I think Silan needs to be more explicit about what the mainland is and isn't though. Honestly, Ryzom cannot compete for the same middle ground that WoW, EQ2 etc battle over, there aren't the resources to do so. Ryzom's hope is in finding a solid niche (That held by pre NGE Starwars Galaxies pretty much) and doing it really well.

Raid events that forward the storyline more would, of course, be welcome. That's different to static, repeatable quests and raids.

[totnkopf]

I do not beleive budget has anything to do with the problems Ryzom has. In my opinion it's the dev choices of the things they choose to develop and the things they leave unfinished.
I disagree here. I believe budget has everything to do with it. Nevrax is still on very thin ice finacially. They've bought themselves an extension on life by using the Ring to interest the french court system and the stockholders. However, if Ring doesn't bring in the masses (it won't. its related to that niche that Judy was talking about... getting to that in a min), bye bye Ryzom.

The company is essentially struggling to stay alive. They've cut the dev team, cut off some of the people who helped guide the game, merged servers, etc. They've done everything they can to save money in the short term. Problem is that they have a niche game. They are serving a small community, one that is getting smaller all the time. That means less money and an ever increasing chance that they won't meet that 8 or 9 year plan they had. As much as people like Judy don't want to see it happen, Ryzom has to t listart appealing to the main MMO player. They need the people. As so things like instances or phat lewt are added. Ruin the game? not really... just a different take on it. But the choice is really a watered down Ryzom.... or .... no ryzom.

R2 will not bring in massive waves of people. Its a snazzy feature, but as many have pointed out, limited in what it can do. And this snazzy feature doesn't appeal to the PvPer or those who like to go off an raid or even those who like to group hunt, etc. And thats the majority of the market, the people that Nevrax needs to bring in to stay afloat.

We all love the idea of Ryzom. If we didn't, we wouldn't have played the game more than a day or so. But we have also seen many many many people leave the game for one reason or another. The community as it is today is much smaller than it was a year ago and a tiny fraction from what it was 2 years ago. Nevrax faces a very serious problem of attempting to maintain a large enough player base to make keeping the servers up profitable.

RoS is a good example of Nevrax attempting to get a chunk of that WoW market types. Silan isn't much like the mainland. There are quests that guide the char through various trees (such as quests that guide the player through the first stages of the magic tree). There is phat lewt in the form of MA that is better than can be made with the mats on the isle. Theres even a little arena for lowbies to go smack each other around. Is any of that truly Ryzom? Not really. But its what many of the other MMOs have as their main attraction. So Ryzom has to do it too. so, its not like the mainland... but do a /who on RoS. Notice anything? Its packed with people. Probably more people there than in whole continents on the mainland. And thats telling Nevrax something. All those people are playing their game because of the changes they made. Its free, sure, but if people didn't enjoy it, they wouldn't keep logging on to play it, even if it was free. Nevrax now sees those hundreds of people logging on to RoS and sees a huge opportunity. One that may lead to a large influx of people hitting the mainland. One that can bring their butts out of bankrupcy. Its a necessary evil, if you will. In order for Ryzom to continue on and display its unique story, RAID engine, etc, its has to take on many of the cookie cutter aspects of other MMOs.


Ryzom's hope is in finding a solid niche
The problem here is that even when Ryzom was buzzing with people, it wasn't profitable enough to keep them afloat. The current state of the game has less people and would require more cuts to make it even close to profitable. That would probably mean another server merge. No point in only have a hundred or so people on one server... just throw them in with the French or Germans. Better yet, one server! Big cut in costs now! I remember a Ryzom that had stables that were hard to get to the Stable Boy there were so many people crafting at them. And then Nevrax says "we're broke". How can we then expect them to use the current, small player base to continue its operations when it couldn't do it before when there was 5-10 times as many people as there are now? They can't. And thats where the raids, phat lewt, etc. come from

[grimjim]

Problem is that they have a niche game. They are serving a small community, one that is getting smaller all the time. That means less money and an ever increasing chance that they won't meet that 8 or 9 year plan they had. As much as people like Judy don't want to see it happen, Ryzom has to start appealing to the main MMO player. They need the people. As so things like instances or phat lewt are added. Ruin the game? not really... just a different take on it. But the choice is really a watered down Ryzom.... or .... no ryzom.

Again, I have to disagree, but at least you're backing up your points with ideas :) The community has been growing since Silan, R2 has set the pundits alight but only seems to have muted response on forums. As it gets going it should allow the devs etc to add 'content' more quickly and the playerbase to make up some of the 'lack' itself. A good, relatively cheap and labour light way of appealing to the original Ryzom community and providing content for everyone else from those same people who kept the game alive.

Ryzom is never, ever going to be able to be a mass appeal game it is too weird, too niche, too different. WoW has redefined what a lot of companies consider to be 'success' but you don't need to be a WoW to do well. Since Ryzom can't compete with those sorts of mass market games it is far better served going for people who aren't served by the WoWs and EQ2s of this world. Trying to go after WoW etc won't grab any of their playerbase - they're already well served - and will drive off Ryzom's natural demographic. We've already seen that happen to devastating effect with Ep2 and we've also seen it start to swing back with R2, a fair few old faces turning up for a nose around.

Going for the mainstream would be the end, it would be like the Mr Muscle advert guy going up against Mohammed Ali in his prime. Ryzom should stick to innovation and serving its niche well, aggressively going after the people SWG lost and that sort of ground where they can compete and can do better.


R2 will not bring in massive waves of people. Its a snazzy feature, but as many have pointed out, limited in what it can do. And this snazzy feature doesn't appeal to the PvPer or those who like to go off an raid or even those who like to group hunt, etc. And thats the majority of the market, the people that Nevrax needs to bring in to stay afloat.

That remains to be seen. It could 'turn on' the modding community and bring their expertise and energy to the game, adding immeasurably to it. It is currently limited, but if Nevrax have any sense at all they'll expand it and loosen the rules pretty swiftly, at least so far as player hosted content goes. The PvPers have their roots and outposts (and spires) and have been served to the massive deteriment of the original game community, raiders are getting their kitin nests and R2 can also build Raid type content, so long as people are willing to build it. Hunting has the main world to play in. So all that's already covered really the problem is that it has been at the expense of the initial group of people who colonised Atys.

Every conventional move has been either a disaster or a somewhat limited success. Silan does the job of bringing people in but we don't know if it is making them stick. As we've seen it is creating a false impression. Short term thinking, long term cost, again.

We all love the idea of Ryzom. If we didn't, we wouldn't have played the game more than a day or so. But we have also seen many many many people leave the game for one reason or another. The community as it is today is much smaller than it was a year ago and a tiny fraction from what it was 2 years ago. Nevrax faces a very serious problem of attempting to maintain a large enough player base to make keeping the servers up profitable.

Actualyl, I get the impression things have recovered quite significantly since Silan. It remains to be seen if the influx will stay and how many are just freebie hunters, but we'll see over the coming months. A lot depends on how Nevrax follows up. We're smaller than pre episode 1, but bigger than post Ep2. If Nevrax chases the conventional market it'll just cost them their old playerbase, pretty much entirely, and the new people won't be satisfied with their vision or rate of expansion.

RoS is a good example of Nevrax attempting to get a chunk of that WoW market types. Silan isn't much like the mainland. There are quests that guide the char through various trees (such as quests that guide the player through the first stages of the magic tree). There is phat lewt in the form of MA that is better than can be made with the mats on the isle. Theres even a little arena for lowbies to go smack each other around. Is any of that truly Ryzom? Not really. But its what many of the other MMOs have as their main attraction. So Ryzom has to do it too. Its a necessary evil, if you will. In order for Ryzom to continue on and display its unique story, RAID engine, etc, its has to take on many of the cookie cutter aspects of other MMOs.

Then there would be nothing to differentiate it. I can't stress enough how going after the main middle ground market would completely annihilate Ryzom. Niches are important and viable.

Would you rather every book was a Jackie Collins? Every meal was a McDonalds? There is room, financially and creatively, for well supported niche markets to be successful, you just have to adjust your expectations and recognise that fact.

The problem here is that even when Ryzom was buzzing with people, it wasn't profitable enough to keep them afloat. The current state of the game has less people and would require more cuts to make it even close to profitable. That would probably mean another server merge. No point in only have a hundred or so people on one server... just throw them in with the French or Germans. Better yet, one server! Big cut in costs now! I remember a Ryzom that had stables that were hard to get to the Stable Boy there were so many people crafting at them. And then Nevrax says "we're broke". How can we then expect them to use the current, small player base to continue its operations when it couldn't do it before when there was 5-10 times as many people as there are now? They can't. And thats where the raids, phat lewt, etc. come from

We'll never know because Patch 1 came along pretty damn fast and did a 'Black Death' on the servers. If one could only send a time machine back and warn Nevrax how bad an idea that was. Pretty much every problem since and the reactive nature of changes to the game can all be traced back to that one, singular event. As I said before, pretty much every move towards standard MMO mundanity has cost Ryzom more than it has gained. Even Silan, which is bringing people in, is still effectively a lie. Long term that will cost the game in terms of goodwill and word of mouth, which is the only advertising we have. SWG's cock up has done more for Ryzom than almost anything else that Nevrax have done with the game and to me that's a strong signal that the original vision should be persued again - not exactly the same but in the same ethos.

It is a good rule of business to serve your existing customers first. They're loyal, they'll stick aruond and if happy they'll give you positive publicity. Betray your customer base and you create massive amounts of bad publicity (Reference SWG again). If Ryzom serves its niche well people will come and they will stick and they will tell their friends. If the original promise can even approximately be fulfilled a lot of the pre Ep1 people will come back too. If word of mouth is the only publicity you have you'd better make sure it's good!

[michielb]

Now would be a good time for an official response about what happened to the original vision for the game and how much of it is still "in the works"...

(not holding my breath though)

[rushin]

I think Morgaine you are understating the population increase recently, as you mentioned yourself you hardly play and only popped back for a couple of weeks? (never saw you around). Our guild has 40+ active members, we don’t recruit hard but still have a steady stream of people coming and staying. Cities of Intuition, generally considered the least populated zone, has a lot more people running around than it did a few months ago, there are several new Zorai guilds that seem to be doing pretty well. There have been a few times in the last week or two where we’ve been unable to find a hunting spot in Void with 50+ people in the region. So I think its not all doom and gloom.

However much it winds me up people moaning needlessly on forums I try to keep my comments to a minimum or even better not read the posts (although sometimes the ‘post’ button gets clicked before reason stops me). As incredulous as it seems I love this game, I have a lot of fun, I’ve been playing without a break for 2 years and I still have a million things to do. I can’t understand why people who are unhappy with something need to try and gain the popular support of others or post repeatedly the same complaints month after month, year after year. Fanboys and girls who do the opposite are annoying as well, but not half as damaging to the game; there is an idiom involving shooting oneself in the foot that might be worthwhile thinking about.

What is there to achieve by moaning? Not just here but in life generally… If you don’t like something don’t do it. Simple really. If you think the population is too small then find a game with a bigger one, if you find the development too slow find a game with a bigger budget, but let people who enjoy their time here enjoy it and not suffer reading the same tired rants time after time.

[raynes]

I disagree here. I believe budget has everything to do with it. Nevrax is still on very thin ice finacially.

If they had someone working on the outposts or someone working on the encylopedia, there is no difference in budget. That is why I don't think budget has as much to do with Ryzoms problems as people say.

[raynes]

As you can see above, I came to precisely the opposite conclusion. I think chasing the general demographic has profoundly harmed Ryzom and resulted in a loss of vision.

Quests - completely inappropriate for Ryzom in standard format and ideas. R2 will allow players to make and present 'quests' which fills this gap up quite a bit and will also allow for more specialised events, IMO. This is all to the good. The closest thing would be more ency missions, which we all hope are forthcoming I'm sure.

Raids - Completely inappropriate again, but you're getting your wish with the Kitin lair. I'm holding my breath to see how it's executed but 'phat lewt' will annihilate much of what makes the game work.

Bosses - See above.

I think Silan needs to be more explicit about what the mainland is and isn't though. Honestly, Ryzom cannot compete for the same middle ground that WoW, EQ2 etc battle over, there aren't the resources to do so. Ryzom's hope is in finding a solid niche (That held by pre NGE Starwars Galaxies pretty much) and doing it really well.

Raid events that forward the storyline more would, of course, be welcome. That's different to static, repeatable quests and raids.


You are right, we are polar opposites. Let me explain why you are wrong. To prove my point all you have to do is look at the game population. It's small, really small. If what you suggest were true, then the lack of all the things I suggeted would have brought massive amounts of players. You know as well as I do, that has not happened.

You say quests are completely inappropriate, yet you go on to talk about ency missions and you hope there are more forthcoming. If missions are inappropiate why do you need those?

In any game where you have people playing for hours upon hours each day you need to provide a variety of things to do. Ryzom does not have that. In Ryzom you can run tasks which are the same thing over and over. You can harvest, fight, or craft. This is not enough to keep people interested day after day after day. The purpose of unique quests, bosses, and raids are to provide long term players something different to do after playing for 365 days in a row.

The problem isn't that Silan doesn't represent the game. The problem is that the game isn't like Silan. Why do you think the new starter area got rave reviews? Why do you think more people have stayed when playing the new starter island and not the old ones?

The Kitin Lair is being put in so that upper level players have something to do besides kill the same stuff they have for 200 levels before. It's not to ruin the game, it's not to kill what makes Ryzom unique, it's to keep people busy.

I also never said that Ryzom should compete for the same ground as EQ2 or WoW. They need more players. In order to get playes and keep them, there needs to be a variety of things to do and Ryzom fails in that area. Telling people "It does have a variety of things to do, it's a sandbox game. After you have played for a year killing things for 200 levels, you can take part in the roleplaying event "Atys Idol" and that's new" is just is not going to cut it.

If you can think of things they can do besides quests, bosses, and raid for activites to keep players busy please share them. Real things, not "roleplay" things. Otherwise I am sticking to my point that Ryzom needs more of what makes other MMO's interesting.

[raynes]

If you don’t like something don’t do it.

No, if you are unhappy about something you express your unhappiness.

[zanthar]

I agree with raynes

they aint added much
what they have added isnt complete/well thought out
they have given up on somethings to move onto sparkly thing

still love it tho
Please take what I have to say with a grain of salt as it is not intended to offend anyone:D but please count your blessings! This game is almost bug free. The bugs that I have encountered are minimal at best compared to the game play cramping bugs in Star Wars Galaxies where whole quests maybe gimped anywhere along the the story line of the Quest and I mean you can not finish the quest it is so bad! They also have dumbed that game down soo bad, to try to attract the WOW kiddies and the like, that the older vets such as myself that took a break came back to a stripped down verision of it's fromer glory known as the NGE! Where they took away the 36 professions and left only 9, and when they did that they started giving away a severly crippled version of Jedi with a click of the mouse, where as you used to have to have to work for that most coveted profession! But I digress I have only been in game since early August and left Star Wars Galaxies, which I was a 34 month paying veteran, on the 22nd of the same month so my view is new and fresh. And I can agree that they may not have added the kinds of things you wanted or thought necissary, but in thier defence they are working on a limited budget! Please remember that these are just my thoughts!

[grimjim]

You are right, we are polar opposites. Let me explain why you are wrong. To prove my point all you have to do is look at the game population. It's small, really small. If what you suggest were true, then the lack of all the things I suggeted would have brought massive amounts of players. You know as well as I do, that has not happened.

And let me explain why you're wrong :)

I look at the game now and I see a recovery in player numbers. Why? Silan and R2. Silan because it addressed a genuine problem in the game - the starter areas and lack of a decent trial (Though it is still flawed) R2 because it is unique, interesting and a return to the initial vision of Ryzom.

Then I look back at the things that have harmed the game and I see attempts at adding conventional type content into the game that hit three snags.

1. P'ed off the original sign-ups, driving many of them away.
2. Failed to satisfy the people it was aimed at in any meaningful way.
3. Failed to attract new players who were better served by more polished versions of that content elsewhere.

The things you've suggested have, historically in Ryzom, driven people away, not brought them in. Now that a fundamental problem has been addressed and something innovative and different has been brought in, surprise surprise, numbers are back up again.

You say quests are completely inappropriate, yet you go on to talk about ency missions and you hope there are more forthcoming. If missions are inappropiate why do you need those?

There's a difference between missions, quests and encyclopaedia quests.

1. Missions - These are repeatable fedex/kill tasks that make sense to be repeatedly done.
2. Quests - These are storylines that would be fine in single player games but in multiplayer games quickly become ridiculous. How many times does that guy's wife need to be saved from the goblins before she buys an effin' clue about wandering in strange alleys after dark?!? It is a strength of Ryzom that it does not do these.
3. Encylopaedia Quests - These are presented more as rites of passage, ordeals to undergo to get new knowledge. These make sense in such a way to be repeatable by different players and the rewards help to individualise and differentiate characters. Once there are more of them hopefully we'll start to see some race/faction/civilisation diversification and characterisation, which will be nice.

In any game where you have people playing for hours upon hours each day you need to provide a variety of things to do. Ryzom does not have that. In Ryzom you can run tasks which are the same thing over and over. You can harvest, fight, or craft. This is not enough to keep people interested day after day after day. The purpose of unique quests, bosses, and raids are to provide long term players something different to do after playing for 365 days in a row.

With Ryzom you get out what you put in, that's now even more true with the ring. If you lack imagination and expect to be fed things on a plate then you're not going to get anywhere but doing that spoonfeeding would be to eliminate much of what makes Atys great. Facilitating players to create their own content and play (as with R2) would be a much better approach here.

You say these things provide something different? They don't. No producer can keep up producing enough content of those types to make people happy. It's a blind alley. Even WoW with all its cash can't provide a decent 'endgame' of the type you propose. Players and guides have already done wonders with the limited sandbox that Ryzom was, now R2 expands that further and it would be far more valuable to the game as a whole to continue to facilitate open, creative content than to provide static things of the type you describe.

The problem isn't that Silan doesn't represent the game. The problem is that the game isn't like Silan. Why do you think the new starter area got rave reviews? Why do you think more people have stayed when playing the new starter island and not the old ones?

The Kitin Lair is being put in so that upper level players have something to do besides kill the same stuff they have for 200 levels before. It's not to ruin the game, it's not to kill what makes Ryzom unique, it's to keep people busy.

I also never said that Ryzom should compete for the same ground as EQ2 or WoW. They need more players. In order to get playes and keep them, there needs to be a variety of things to do and Ryzom fails in that area. Telling people "It does have a variety of things to do, it's a sandbox game. After you have played for a year killing things for 200 levels, you can take part in the roleplaying event "Atys Idol" and that's new" is just is not going to cut it.

Except it has cut it for the population for two years and now they've got the tools to do more with it. There is a variety limited only, really, by the effort and imagination you're willing to put in. Silan got rave reviews because it is free and because Ryzom is visually stunning and has a good skill system, those are the main reasons. It also solved the starter islands problem, the trick is retaining the people that come across to the mainland now and I don't think that's helped by the mischaracterisation that Silan creates though, hopefully, enough people will get hooked on the real game.

If you can think of things they can do besides quests, bosses, and raid for activites to keep players busy please share them. Real things, not "roleplay" things. Otherwise I am sticking to my point that Ryzom needs more of what makes other MMO's interesting.

Roleplay IS 'real things' and I'd facilitate it more. I would broaden the more open ended content and add more of it. I would add RP props, I would rapidly expand and open up R2, I would use it to host guide events, I'd get the invasions going again. Ryzom shines where the players get to participate in live events and make a genuine difference, that can't be done with 'quest', 'raid' or 'boss' content of the type you describe. I'd add mounts, clothes, even the entertainer skill tree someone talked about. I'd do more to make it a world and I'd avoid raids, quests and phat lewt like the blummin' plague. I'd also finish outposts and in a new wave of outpost activations would introduce different ways to take them. I'd also reactivate faction points but make them awardable through Kami/Kara tasks as well as PvP.

Lots of things that we already have or that could be expanded in an openended fashion.

[grimjim]

Zanthar makes the best example I can think of. SWG had a loyal playerbase, a sandboxish game system, a living world with a lot of acclaim and they tossed it all away to pursue the WoW buck. Now their servers are gutted, they have the enmity of their entire old playerbase constantly churning bad publicity - not only for the game, but for the company.

Do we want the same thing to happen to Ryzom?

I don't think so.

[sx4rlet]

If they had someone working on the outposts or someone working on the encylopedia, there is no difference in budget. That is why I don't think budget has as much to do with Ryzoms problems as people say.

I think I can understand you here. Sometimes I got the idea Nevrax was like a person with a short attention span, who started all kind of nice and cool ideas, but never finished them.

I am happy they stopped that at least and finish what they start nowadays (like EP2, outposts, ROS and R2, even if those werent what I hoped those things would be...)

[rothimar]

Actually... I would attribute a lot of the chaos with SWG to the fact hat SoE took over running/developing it. They have a habit of bad habits which ruin their games rather badly.

Bringing some traditional MMORPG concepts without removing the quality of the existing style of play can be done. And... taking a look at the RoS, combined with the introduction of the Ring (remember the developers are going to be using it too), and you have the foundation of more quest based content.

RoS is an introduction and tutorial for new players. Why would they design RoS to completely misinform players of the life on mainland Atys? It is my opinion that mainland will more than likely begin to resemble RoS a little more with each update.


Zanthar makes the best example I can think of. SWG had a loyal playerbase, a sandboxish game system, a living world with a lot of acclaim and they tossed it all away to pursue the WoW buck. Now their servers are gutted, they have the enmity of their entire old playerbase constantly churning bad publicity - not only for the game, but for the company.

Do we want the same thing to happen to Ryzom?

I don't think so.

[sx4rlet]

2. Quests - These are storylines that would be fine in single player games but in multiplayer games quickly become ridiculous. How many times does that guy's wife need to be saved from the goblins before she buys an effin' clue about wandering in strange alleys after dark?!? It is a strength of Ryzom that it does not do these.


This is true, but only if you look at the games that are totally quest-driven.

In the past I played 2 games that had some kind of episodes, where you could do a certain quest for the storyline. Sure it was the same quest for all players, although there were different choices you could make for them.
The total amount of players that did the quest for side a and for side b, gave the direction of the next episode. This way, I really felt involved in the story.

(But I agree, dont make the game quest driven, the way you decribe it above.)

[rothimar]

(But I agree, dont make the game quest driven, the way you decribe it above.)

This... I completely agree with.

I would much prefer the encylopedia line, where the quests give the player lore, and the quests aren't breaking realism as described in one of the posts above.

I don't mind quests, missions, tasks... it's the lack of originality, lack of realism, and innapropriate rewards that usually bring me down. No quest should offer something better than what a player can craft.

[xolghost]

Just picking up another point here... Sorry, but your quote drove me to think the following.I am happy they stopped that at least and finish what they start nowadays (like EP2, outposts, ROS and R2, even if those werent what I hoped those things would be...)They stopped another thing they promised to improve not too long ago and of which I dearly hope they'll pick up again: communication... just news and decreasing prospects are not enough.

btt?....
Integrating "quests" into Ryzom, OK... driving SoR by "quests"? No, thanks...
Silan is the perfect example of why you both, Jy & Raynes, are right somehow.
I wouldn't mind "quests", or pompous missions, if you like that better, nobody would mind more rites filling our enyclopedias with more lore. Still, rewarding these tasks with items that surpass any item a crafter could provide you with is perverting one of Ryzom's prime mechanics. Providing comparable stuff to higher level players will ruin complete crafter's branches, driving them away faster than you could ask where they went. If done without uber loot or XP rewards will not harm as long as these missions don't pretend to move the main story onward. (Maybe a chance to introduce new clothing, as clothing only, or dancing moves, drinks, food...?)
Jy is right in saying that Atys' character should not be touched (by mainstream), Raynes in saying that Atys needs more Homins and, IMO, in saying there's not enough movement or movement in sight (which we mainly judge by the bones given to us dogs...well see the top of this post for that *g*).

[raynes]

Except it has cut it for the population for two years and now they've got the tools to do more with it.

But it hasn't. That's where I think you are missing the point. Ryzom has not been able to pull in the number of players it needs to become a huge success. And of the players that it did pull in, most of them get bored after awhile and move on. If it had cut it with the population for two years, you wouldn't of had entire large established guilds like Infinity up and leave.


Zanthar makes the best example I can think of. SWG had a loyal playerbase, a sandboxish game system, a living world with a lot of acclaim and they tossed it all away to pursue the WoW buck. Now their servers are gutted, they have the enmity of their entire old playerbase constantly churning bad publicity - not only for the game, but for the company.


You are wrong about SWG. Star Wars is a huge license. It's one of the few things that pretty much the entire world know, likes, and understands. When you create a MMO from that license you should have huge populations and legions of fans. SWG never had that. They had a niche game. That is why they gutted it. I remember reading a coment from a person at SOE concerning the game and it was so very true. It was something like this "SWG was a great game where you could roleplay living on a sandfarm. The problem is that no one really want to do that. They want action like in the movies. That is where SWG failed."

[raynes]

This is true, but only if you look at the games that are totally quest-driven.

In the past I played 2 games that had some kind of episodes, where you could do a certain quest for the storyline. Sure it was the same quest for all players, although there were different choices you could make for them.
The total amount of players that did the quest for side a and for side b, gave the direction of the next episode. This way, I really felt involved in the story.

(But I agree, dont make the game quest driven, the way you decribe it above.)

I agree with this also. I was never saying that Ryzom should be changed to a game where it's completely quest driven. That would be a horrible thing to do. I don't feel that is how any mmo should force a player into doing any one activity. What Ryzom currently has is the exact opposite, that being no quests at all (or very few) which is no better.

There needs to be a balance.

[raynes]

Just picking up another point here... Sorry, but your quote drove me to think the following.They stopped another thing they promised to improve not too long ago and of which I dearly hope they'll pick up again: communication... just news and decreasing prospects are not enough.

btt?....
Integrating "quests" into Ryzom, OK... driving SoR by "quests"? No, thanks...
Silan is the perfect example of why you both, Jy & Raynes, are right somehow.
I wouldn't mind "quests", or pompous missions, if you like that better, nobody would mind more rites filling our enyclopedias with more lore. Still, rewarding these tasks with items that surpass any item a crafter could provide you with is perverting one of Ryzom's prime mechanics. Providing comparable stuff to higher level players will ruin complete crafter's branches, driving them away faster than you could ask where they went. If done without uber loot or XP rewards will not harm as long as these missions don't pretend to move the main story onward. (Maybe a chance to introduce new clothing, as clothing only, or dancing moves, drinks, food...?)
Jy is right in saying that Atys' character should not be touched (by mainstream), Raynes in saying that Atys needs more Homins and, IMO, in saying there's not enough movement or movement in sight (which we mainly judge by the bones given to us dogs...well see the top of this post for that *g*).

You solve the problem of looted items being better than crafted items by awarding items that do things that crafters can not make or items that improve crafted items. For example you beat a boss and get a recipie that give mount food a speed boost, increasing the speed of mounts as you ride them. Or you award a sword handle that improves the standard swords sharpness. That way the item is no good alone, yet you still need crafted items.

[archaeos]

-Sigh-
Like someone posted allready ...the same ranting continues...

But consider this :

Some people here made some really intresting theories,and prolly they are pretty right about some things.eg:

Time:Everything points it out that some of the contents were just merely launched cause of the pressure of time ...bugs and half finished stuff,to be able to compete with other games for not seeing all the people go to the other games,to show results towards their investors,...
as a former betaplayer u should KNOW a lot has changed..We had EP1 &,EP 2,Kitin lair,adaptations of personages,Outposts,RoS and also the patches between.If u know something about programming u should be aware that each of these 'projects' ask a shitload of time.Not only for creating it but also for testing ...keep it bugfree (and in my opinion;yes we had a few bugs ,but not like hundreds ,and not of that kind that u weren't able to play the game due to your hardware was incompatible or what the heck else,and if it was like that don't tell me the GG's & GM's weren't there to help u out!If u posted a problem,u ever noticed the speed they answered it, with a solution?)

Money:Why would a company launch new contents to attract new players,Why would they cut on the budgets in their devteam,etc,why would they merge servers,...
Why on earth u think they launched R2????In my opinion R2 is a perfect solution to all the players that are complaining about the lack of new ideas,of new contents and also a perfect solution for the devs to work on the missing parts and promises while keeping the investors happy and players playing with the ideas they have of the game.Show your creativity and helptowards the evolution of Ryzom..U can take part in it as an investor,if u sit aside and start complaining well.....-cough-

As for me ...I am in Ryzom for a nice time...and still in it ...why ?For the content,because it looks like other games?Nah
Because I had a certain idea what the base was and the possibilities it had.

I think we all play MMORPG's because we can communicate with others,form teams, work together and create your own content in a way,as a group,I think even without missions,rites,etc
I would have fun in this game even without it's content ...If I do missions or stuff in the encyclopedia it is mainly because I am playing alone.
This is what I liked so much about Ryzom ...U have the total freedom in it .
If I want a complete game and finish it's story as soon as possible ,I would probably opt for a soloplaying game where I don't have towatch around about who can't follow,players,devs or whoever.
What on earth is so difficult about Roleplaying in this game and what would be wrong with doing it filling your time while awaiting new contents...

Ofcourse I also understand your frustration as an 'investor' and not finding the things u want ...If u played for some years(like many of us), u also allready put a certain amount of money in it...And it is your right also to see results.But I think it is impossible to keep EVERYONE happy,make huge profits,make loads of people join and not loosing the originality and the true idea behind Ryzom we all chose for when we started to play.
The Playerbase is increasing and that's a good thing,but on the other hand it could also decrease the quality of the community.So what's more apealing for u:Quick results or a solid game that still have all the nice aspects we choose for.
But these are my theories

We all have different expectations ,diffferent theories and different ideas about how the content should look like.And as in RL,as in most communities and most companies,the decisions aren't taken by the base.And if u can't adapt to it ,u will get left behind .Take this as an advize of someone who works for one of the biggest multinationals of his country ;)( Arc are u really defending them ....GAH ..What happened to your rebelling feelings...hits some sense in her brain while bashing head against PC-screen)

(I have to admit this thread is getting more and more intresting ..even if I really didn't like the first post ;) and It took me to long to reply cuz we allready passed on to the next subject ....raaaah...hits her head again...wake up People ...end of this post...)
(SORRY RUSHIN!!!-grin-I couldn't resist posting ...Madposting disease)

[grimjim]

But it hasn't. That's where I think you are missing the point. Ryzom has not been able to pull in the number of players it needs to become a huge success. And of the players that it did pull in, most of them get bored after awhile and move on. If it had cut it with the population for two years, you wouldn't of had entire large established guilds like Infinity up and leave.

Here's where you're missing the point.
Ryzom doesn't need to be a huge success, it just needs to be a success. To be a huge success it would have to compromise everything that makes it good and it would need a massive cash injection. It partly depends on how you measure success as well. Is success solely measured in cash terms and subscribers or can it also be measured in innovation, artistic merit and other factors?

If Ryzom had ever been intended to be a massive commercial game it would have been fantasy, it would have been class/level based, it wouldn't have been anything it currently is and odds are it would have already gone down the tubes without a great deal of luck.

The biggest loss of playerbase we've had were with patch 1 mangling the system and then being straightened out. Personally I think that people were stupid for not having enough patience to wait two weeks for it to get ironed out, but them's the breaks. The second biggest loss was the abrupt introduction of wholesale PvP contradicting the mood and culture that had developed in the game. The interesting part was that amongst those losses - once that got as far as outposts - were the people who'd been clamouring for PvP and ended up unsatisfied with the result.

You are wrong about SWG. Star Wars is a huge license. It's one of the few things that pretty much the entire world know, likes, and understands. When you create a MMO from that license you should have huge populations and legions of fans. SWG never had that. They had a niche game. That is why they gutted it. I remember reading a coment from a person at SOE concerning the game and it was so very true. It was something like this "SWG was a great game where you could roleplay living on a sandfarm. The problem is that no one really want to do that. They want action like in the movies. That is where SWG failed."

I remember that comment too, but consider this. Before WoW and after WoW the climate was extremely different. Before WoW SWG was considered a pretty good success and had lots of critical acclaim. After WoW we have a paradigm shift of expectation, suddenly 100,000 players isn't considered a success story, a million is. SWG was not a failure by any stretch of the imagination what changed was the climate and people's expectations - which became unrealistic.

As it has turned out, people don't want to play a shallow, empty shell of a game compared to living in a world so much and SWG is gutted. Virtual worlds (as many MMORPGs are) are not the same as other computer games. Moisture farming and living in the world is what a lot of people want to do, apparently.

If I can (slightly) digress for a moment...

This brings up two issues from my business, tabletop gaming, and I think the problems cross-pollinate to a pretty good extent.

1. 'Fantasy Heartbreakers'. Computer games are a little different than TTRPGs in that graphics and computer power develop quickly so the obsolescence factor kicks in in much faster cycles. Still, this applies. A fantasy heartbreaker is what we call it when someone tries to make 'D&D only better'. D&D is the big game in the TTRPG world and nothing can touch it, it had a dark patch in the 90's when TSR started going under but apart from that it has always been the granddaddy RPG. It has been updated a few times but is still the same basic thing. Everyone, everyone who has tried to do 'D&D only better' has failed and the landscape is littered with those failed games. Some of them did do stuff better, a lot better, but the fact of the matter was that people who liked those sorts of games had D&D and were perfectly happy with it. A few fantasy games have found niches in which they're successful, but nothing like the scale of D&D which defines TTRPGs in most people's minds. You've got your RuneQuest and your Rolemaster and then its hard to think of any others that are still active and successful.

WoW is the current D&D of the MMORPG world and trying to imitate it and leach off its success will only lead to fantasy heartbreaker territory. Some players will 'graduate' from WoW in the same way some people went onto more mature games from D&D but to expect WoW like success from doing WoW - only better - will likely spell doom.

2. Licences - Since you bring it up... everyone always thinks licences are going to make the huge difference in my industry, they don't and if you look at computer game history it rarely works out there either. I can count the decent Star Trek or Star Wars licensed games on the fingers of one foot. In the TTRPG world the most successful licensed games were, probably, Buffy/Angel and Babylon 5. Other than that I'm hard pressed to think of any you'd even see in a games shop.

There's a lot of debate about the reasons for this but the general consensus seems to be that it is because established setting characters tend to overshadow anything a player might do. In a Star Wars setting you'll never be Luke, or Han, or Obi Wan for example. The experience of the game is not that of the movie.

SWG sidestepped that issue by going for the living world approach and it WAS successful. They gambled a successful and happy playerbase on getting a piece of the WoW pie and they screwed up.

[zanthar]

This... I completely agree with.

I would much prefer the encylopedia line, where the quests give the player lore, and the quests aren't breaking realism as described in one of the posts above.

I don't mind quests, missions, tasks... it's the lack of originality, lack of realism, and innapropriate rewards that usually bring me down. No quest should offer something better than what a player can craft.

Rothimar hit the nail on the head with this post! :D When the game offers better eqiupment than a player can craft it destroys the economy because then you have players just hunting these uber weapons or components to make uber weapons as in SWG where the chu gon dar cube makes better weapons than any player can craft and certain boss NPCs drop better equipment too! And I hope that the Devs here NEVER and I MEAN NEVER take away decay because that completely destroys a player based economy and runs prices of equipment through the roof!

[archaeos]

Hey Grim ..what about logging in game ;)

[grimjim]

Hey Grim ..what about logging in game ;)

I was logged in when I was writing a lot of this, running from town to town (dear devs, please restore town TPs for neutrals... my legs are tired). Then I had to go and cook, Kos is a slavedriver :P

See you in game in a few.

[Fred1l1]

I tend to agree with raynes just based on why I left personally. I played since open beta and stuck with the game for over a year. The problem wasn't what they added (the patch...while it wasn't good, it wasn't a huge heartbreak imo), it was what they DIDNT add. The features that were on the box, never even made it into the game, or not until over a year after it came out. I left due to boredom, no more, no less.

All of the 'extra' stuff, that happened once a week at best, and were usually player-driven, weren't enough to keep off of the constant grind that the game became for me. The best fun i had was trying to get groups through the roots back when kitin patrols were still around...good times :)

As a once-active member and officer of a guild (eye of wonder then merged to eye of atys) and in the community in general, I still couldn't find enough to just keep me BUSY, and when i wasn't busy, the grind set in. That i could settle for a while, but when there is nothing new, and nothing that you were hoping for in the game in general, then it just got too boring.

Everything they add helps the game, makes things different, adds a new level of SOMETHING to do. I think R2 will be a huge step for the people to have something to do, more often. Hopefully this will keep the people that have been around for a while, and might be getting bored as i was, to stay with more things to do.

My 2 cents.

[raynes]

Here's where you're missing the point.
Ryzom doesn't need to be a huge success, it just needs to be a success. To be a huge success it would have to compromise everything that makes it good and it would need a massive cash injection. It partly depends on how you measure success as well. Is success solely measured in cash terms and subscribers or can it also be measured in innovation, artistic merit and other factors?

It's a business. It's measured in cash terms (which is the same as subscriber numbers). Ryzom isn't a huge success, I'd even go so far as to say it's not a success at all. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's hardly a success in terms of mmo's.



2. Licences - Since you bring it up... everyone always thinks licences are going to make the huge difference in my industry, they don't and if you look at computer game history it rarely works out there either. I can count the decent Star Trek or Star Wars licensed games on the fingers of one foot. In the TTRPG world the most successful licensed games were, probably, Buffy/Angel and Babylon 5. Other than that I'm hard pressed to think of any you'd even see in a games shop.
Successful Star Wars Games:
* Star Wars: Empire at War (2006) Windows
* Star Wars: Battlefront (2004) PlayStation 2, Windows, Xbox, Apple Macintosh
* Star Wars: Battlefront II (2005) PlayStation 2, Windows, Xbox, PlayStation Portable
* Star Wars: Dark Forces (1995) MS-DOS, Macintosh, PlayStation
* Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II (1997) Windows
o Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith (expansion) (1998) Windows
* Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (2002) Windows, Macintosh, Xbox, Nintendo GameCube
* Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (2003) Windows, Macintosh, Xbox

* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003) Windows, Xbox, Macintosh
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (2004) Windows, Xbox

* X-Wing (1993) MS-DOS, Macintosh
o B-Wing (expansion) (1993)
o Imperial Pursuit (expansion) (1993)
o X-Wing: Collector's CD-ROM (1994)
* TIE Fighter (1994) Windows, Macintosh
o TIE Fighter: Defender of the Empire (expansion) (1994)
o TIE Fighter: Collector's CD-ROM (1995)
* Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (1997) Windows
o Balance of Power (expansion) (1997)
o X-Wing Collector Series (1998)
* X-Wing Alliance (1999) Windows

* Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire (1996) (TPS) Nintendo 64, Windows
* Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1992) (Platform) NES
* Star Wars Trilogy Arcade (1998) (Rail shooter) Arcade
* Super Empire Strikes Back (1993) (Platform) SNES
* Super Return of the Jedi (1994) (Platform) SNES
* Super Star Wars (1992) (Platform) SNES

* Lego Star Wars: The Video Game (2005), (TPS) Windows, PlayStation 2, Xbox, Nintendo GameCube, Game Boy Advance, Macintosh
* Lego Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy (Coming fall 2006), (TPS) Windows, PlayStation 2, PSP, Xbox, Xbox 360, Nintendo GameCube, Nintendo DS, Game Boy Advance, Macintosh
* Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (2001) (RTS) Windows, Macintosh
o Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Wars Campaign (2002) Windows, Macintosh


You must have a lot of "fingers on one foot". 29 to be exact.

[grimjim]

It's a business. It's measured in cash terms (which is the same as subscriber numbers). Ryzom isn't a huge success, I'd even go so far as to say it's not a success at all. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's hardly a success in terms of mmo's.

Your criteria for 'success' when it comes to Starwars games is apparently the equivalent of 'published'.

*sigh* Cash is not the only terms for success, it would be a very sad world if it were.

[raynes]

Your criteria for 'success' when it comes to Starwars games is apparently the equivalent of 'published'.

*sigh* Cash is not the only terms for success, it would be a very sad world if it were.

Hardly each of the games I listed not only sold large number of copies, but were given high praise when reviewed. I purposely left out a large number of them because they weren't successes. Here is a more complete list:

Empire at War (RTS):

* Star Wars: Empire at War (2006) Windows
o Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption (expansion) (2006) Windows

Battlefront series (FPS)

* Star Wars: Battlefront (2004) PlayStation 2, Windows, Xbox, Apple Macintosh
* Star Wars: Battlefront II (2005) PlayStation 2, Windows, Xbox, PlayStation Portable

Dark Forces series (FPS)

* Star Wars: Dark Forces (1995) MS-DOS, Macintosh, PlayStation
* Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II (1997) Windows
o Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith (expansion) (1998) Windows
* Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (2002) Windows, Macintosh, Xbox, Nintendo GameCube
* Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (2003) Windows, Macintosh, Xbox

Galaxies series (MMORPG)

* Star Wars: Galaxies: An Empire Divided (2003) Windows
o Star Wars Galaxies: Jump to Lightspeed (2004)
o Star Wars Galaxies: Episode III Rage of the Wookies (2005)
o Star Wars Galaxies: The Total Experience (2005)
o Star Wars Galaxies: Trials of Obi-Wan (2005)
o Star Wars Galaxies: Starter Kit (2005)

Knights of the Old Republic series (RPG)

* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003) Windows, Xbox, Macintosh
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (2004) Windows, Xbox

Rebel Assault series (Rail shooter)

* Star Wars: Rebel Assault (1994) Windows, Macintosh, Sega CD, 3DO
* Star Wars: Rebel Assault II - The Hidden Empire (1995) Windows, PlayStation, Macintosh

Rogue Squadron series (Space flight simulator)

* Star Wars: Rogue Squadron (1998) Windows, Nintendo 64
* Star Wars Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader (2001) Nintendo GameCube
* Star Wars Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike (2003) Nintendo GameCube

X-wing computer game series (Space flight simulator)

* X-Wing (1993) MS-DOS, Macintosh
o B-Wing (expansion) (1993)
o Imperial Pursuit (expansion) (1993)
o X-Wing: Collector's CD-ROM (1994)
* TIE Fighter (1994) Windows, Macintosh
o TIE Fighter: Defender of the Empire (expansion) (1994)
o TIE Fighter: Collector's CD-ROM (1995)
* Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (1997) Windows
o Balance of Power (expansion) (1997)
o X-Wing Collector Series (1998)
* X-Wing Alliance (1999) Windows

[edit]

Non-series games

Prequel trilogy
(these games are set in the timeframe of the Star Wars prequel films)

* Star Wars: Battle for Naboo (2000) Nintendo 64, Windows
* Star Wars: Bounty Hunter (2002) PlayStation 2, Nintendo GameCube
* Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2002) PlayStation 2, GameCube, Xbox
* Star Wars: The Clone Wars & Tetris Worlds
* Star Wars: Droid Works (1999) Windows
* Star Wars: Episode I: Jedi Power Battles (2000) PlayStation, Sega Dreamcast, Game Boy Advance
* Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace (1999)
* Star Wars: Episode I Racer (1999) (Racing) Windows, Macintosh, Sega Dreamcast, Nintendo 64
* Star Wars: Episode II: Attack of the Clones (2002) Game Boy Advance
* Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005) (TPS) PlayStation 2, Xbox
* Star Wars: Jedi Starfighter (2002) Xbox, Playstation 2
* Star Wars: Obi-Wan (2001) (TPS) Xbox
* Star Wars: Racer Revenge (2002) (Racing) PlayStation 2
* Star Wars: Republic Commando (2005) (FPS) Windows, Xbox
* Star Wars: Starfighter (2001) Windows, Playstation 2
o Star Wars: Starfighter Special Edition (2001) version for Xbox
* Star Wars: Super Bombad Racing (2001) PlayStation 2
* Star Wars Episode II: The New Droid Army (????) Game Boy Advance

Classic trilogy
(these games are set in the timeframe of the original Star Wars films)

* Star Wars (1991) (Platform) NES
* Star Wars (1995) Game Gear
* Star Wars Arcade Arcade, Sega 32x
* Star Wars: Demolition (2000) (Racing) PlayStation, Dreamcast
* Star Wars: Force Commander (2000) (RTS) Windows
* Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi (1997) (Fighting) PlayStation
* Star Wars: Rebellion (1998) (RTS) Windows
* Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire (1996) (TPS) Nintendo 64, Windows
* Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1992) (Platform) NES
* Star Wars Trilogy Arcade (1998) (Rail shooter) Arcade
* Star Wars: Yoda Stories (1997) (Adventure) Windows, Game Boy
* Super Empire Strikes Back (1993) (Platform) SNES
* Super Return of the Jedi (1994) (Platform) SNES
* Super Star Wars (1992) (Platform) SNES

Both trilogies
(these games are set in the timeframes of both Star Wars trilogies)

* Lego Star Wars: The Video Game (2005), (TPS) Windows, PlayStation 2, Xbox, Nintendo GameCube, Game Boy Advance, Macintosh
* Lego Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy (Coming fall 2006), (TPS) Windows, PlayStation 2, PSP, Xbox, Xbox 360, Nintendo GameCube, Nintendo DS, Game Boy Advance, Macintosh
* Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (2001) (RTS) Windows, Macintosh
o Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Wars Campaign (2002) Windows, Macintosh

[grimjim]

Hardly each of the games I listed not only sold large number of copies, but were given high praise when reviewed. I purposely left out a large number of them because they weren't successes. Here is a more complete list:

And even many of the ones in your original list were _panned_.

You can note a common thread in the few that can be considered genuine successes though, that concurs with my observation above.

Either they place the player in the position of the main story (something you can't do with an MMO set in an established universe) or they remove themselves from the main universe and go off somewhere where they have room to play (KOTOR) again, something you can't really do in an MMO based upon the franchise. Starwars has faired - somewhat - better than Star Trek, I'll give you that but even if I were to concede most of these it wouldn't make a damn's worth of difference to what happened with SWG or what will happen to any game that tries to chase the WoW buck at the expense of its existing market.

[raynes]

And even many of the ones in your original list were _panned_.

You can note a common thread in the few that can be considered genuine successes though, that concurs with my observation above.

Either they place the player in the position of the main story (something you can't do with an MMO set in an established universe) or they remove themselves from the main universe and go off somewhere where they have room to play (KOTOR) again, something you can't really do in an MMO based upon the franchise. Starwars has faired - somewhat - better than Star Trek, I'll give you that but even if I were to concede most of these it wouldn't make a damn's worth of difference to what happened with SWG or what will happen to any game that tries to chase the WoW buck at the expense of its existing market.

It's not a matter of chasing WoW's buck. It's a matter of producing mmo's that are [/b]massive multiplayer[b] online games. Massive in having large number of players. SWG never got the massive number of players it should have. And to bring this discussion back to Ryzom, nor has it.

I think most will agree that R2 will help improve the game. Players will create some content. The real question is if the devs will use the tools to produce more lands, better quests and scenarios, and push the story forward. Or will they repeat the past and continue developing experimental things, that in all reality will not produce the new subscriber numbers they need. Judging from the new player experience and the Kitin Lair, I hope it's the former.

[grimjim]

It's not a matter of chasing WoW's buck. It's a matter of producing mmo's that are [/b]massive multiplayer[b] online games. Massive in having large number of players. SWG never got the massive number of players it should have. And to bring this discussion back to Ryzom, nor has it.

I think most will agree that R2 will help improve the game. Players will create some content. The real question is if the devs will use the tools to produce more lands, better quests and scenarios, and push the story forward. Or will they repeat the past and continue developing experimental things, that in all reality will not produce the new subscriber numbers they need. Judging from the new player experience and the Kitin Lair, I hope it's the former.

Massive doesn't have to mean enormous, it just means a lot of players acting within the same world, so long as that's more people than go on RTS or FPS servers you're probably safe calling it an MMORPG. Even Neverwinter is arguably (and more so than GW or DDO) an MMORPG and that's pretty limited in numbers at one time.

I think more lands would be a mistake, while the game is growing the lands are already big and there's a definite bias towards one particular race making the others seem thinly spread by comparison. Add more lands - of significant size - and the playerbase will be so thinly spread the game will seem far more empty than it actually is.

Quests? Hell no. Encyclopaedia stuff and missions that make sense to be repeatable? Better live events? Sure.

I'm still intensely dubious on the whole Kitin Lair thing, it seems like it could be another mistake like the other 'normal' MMO content. Some polish on the OPs would be nice and then moving forward with similar 'toy' content to the Ring would still, IMO, be best practice. Trying to do a full production of Tommy when you only have a banjo isn't going to go too well, Deliverance on the other hand...

[truce1]

It's not a matter of chasing WoW's buck. It's a matter of producing mmo's that are [/b]massive multiplayer[b] online games. Massive in having large number of players. SWG never got the massive number of players it should have. And to bring this discussion back to Ryzom, nor has it.

I think most will agree that R2 will help improve the game. Players will create some content. The real question is if the devs will use the tools to produce more lands, better quests and scenarios, and push the story forward. Or will they repeat the past and continue developing experimental things, that in all reality will not produce the new subscriber numbers they need. Judging from the new player experience and the Kitin Lair, I hope it's the former.

uhhhhhh..... At the time (Pre-WOW) SWG had the most players of any game...

At that time 500,000 was nothing to scoff at. (and that current subscriptions, not all time like they used for EQ1)

I still don't think it is.

[sx4rlet]

Although I can understand you two both trying to prove a point, I'm not sure the whole starwars collection you two have, helps in this case...

What is next? The whole [name] Quest series from Sierra? ;)

[raynes]

uhhhhhh..... At the time (Pre-WOW) SWG had the most players of any game...

At that time 500,000 was nothing to scoff at. (and that current subscriptions, not all time like they used for EQ1)

I still don't think it is.

Sorry your wrong. SWG never had over 300K subscribers.
http://www.mmorpgchart.com/Chart2.html

[raynes]

Massive doesn't have to mean enormous, it just means a lot of players acting within the same world, so long as that's more people than go on RTS or FPS servers you're probably safe calling it an MMORPG. Even Neverwinter is arguably (and more so than GW or DDO) an MMORPG and that's pretty limited in numbers at one time.

I think more lands would be a mistake, while the game is growing the lands are already big and there's a definite bias towards one particular race making the others seem thinly spread by comparison. Add more lands - of significant size - and the playerbase will be so thinly spread the game will seem far more empty than it actually is.

Quests? Hell no. Encyclopaedia stuff and missions that make sense to be repeatable? Better live events? Sure.

I'm still intensely dubious on the whole Kitin Lair thing, it seems like it could be another mistake like the other 'normal' MMO content. Some polish on the OPs would be nice and then moving forward with similar 'toy' content to the Ring would still, IMO, be best practice. Trying to do a full production of Tommy when you only have a banjo isn't going to go too well, Deliverance on the other hand...

At this point I think we will have to disagree. You can be doubtful of the Kitin Lair all you want. The truth is that it's not something you would enjoy anyway. I see it will do nothing but add some much badly needed content to the game.

[truce1]

Sorry your wrong. SWG never had over 300K subscribers.
http://www.mmorpgchart.com/Chart2.html

Pre-wow, that’s still a hell of allot.

Maybe my #s are fuzzy...so what. Sue me.

You entire argument is that "Massive means millions".. Your wrong lol.

If you notice, before the bomb dropped, all the subscriber numbers basically top off around 300k.

So i guess all of those were flops also.

Besides , its the niches that will win the day... Not the ones who try to follow in WOW's footsteps (and fail, because it cant be recreated).

Pre-wow, that’s still a hell of allot.

Maybe my #s are fuzzy...so what. Sue me.

You entire argument is that "Massive means millions".. Your wrong lol.

If you notice, before the bomb dropped, all the subscriber numbers basically top off around 300k.

So i guess all of those were flops also.

Besides , its the niches that will win the day... Not the ones who try to follow in WOW's footsteps (and fail, because it cant be recreated).

Really dont care

[totnkopf]

You entire argument is that "Massive means millions".. Your wrong lol.
I don't think Raynes means that our servers should be up in the millions. However, the English server is probably only around 2000 people (not including RoS... and being generous), nothing close to what Nevrax needs to it to continue keeping the servers up, developing the game, marketing it, employing Jolt for CSR stuff, etc.
Its not "we need a WoW numbers and we need it now"... its "we need to add another 0 to that 2000 people."
As freddeh pointed out, he left the game out of boredom. There really isn't anything to do after a while. And thats what will happen with those joining the game now. They'll play, get tired of the same stuff, and go away. R2 will help in retaining them for a bit, but even that will get old (just like OPs did). There needs to be new content for those not interested in the Ring. The kitin lair is a step in the right direction. Just like the pvp content, if you go one way, you'll need to add something the other.

I was under the impression that the dev team admitted that the ring tools were too primative for them to use to create new content and that they would either have to create more powerful ones or simply go with their old method of doing things. Has that changed?

I love Ryzom. I really do. I think it has massive potential. but I wonder who does it more harm... the people who criticize it and point out its failings or the fanbois who sit and say "all is well!" and refuse to change their view of what the game once was. The brutal honesty is that unless the population goes up significantly (I don't mean millions... & Rushin, I log in 3-4 times a week. I just don't really grind anything anymore. No need for cats. I chat, I go pvp, thats about it.) that Nevrax is faced with some serious problems financially. The company is already on a skeleton staff and they've admitted that they are not out of bankrupcy. Whether you love the game or wish to see it changed, you have to admit that the subscription numbers have to go up considerably.

[truce1]

I don't think Raynes means that our servers should be up in the millions. However, the English server is probably only around 2000 people (not including RoS... and being generous), nothing close to what Nevrax needs to it to continue keeping the servers up, developing the game, marketing it, employing Jolt for CSR stuff, etc.
Its not "we need a WoW numbers and we need it now"... its "we need to add another 0 to that 2000 people."
As freddeh pointed out, he left the game out of boredom. There really isn't anything to do after a while. And thats what will happen with those joining the game now. They'll play, get tired of the same stuff, and go away. R2 will help in retaining them for a bit, but even that will get old (just like OPs did). There needs to be new content for those not interested in the Ring. The kitin lair is a step in the right direction. Just like the pvp content, if you go one way, you'll need to add something the other.

I was under the impression that the dev team admitted that the ring tools were too primative for them to use to create new content and that they would either have to create more powerful ones or simply go with their old method of doing things. Has that changed?

I love Ryzom. I really do. I think it has massive potential. but I wonder who does it more harm... the people who criticize it and point out its failings or the fanbois who sit and say "all is well!" and refuse to change their view of what the game once was. The brutal honesty is that unless the population goes up significantly (I don't mean millions... & Rushin, I log in 3-4 times a week. I just don't really grind anything anymore. No need for cats. I chat, I go pvp, thats about it.) that Nevrax is faced with some serious problems financially. The company is already on a skeleton staff and they've admitted that they are not out of bankrupcy. Whether you love the game or wish to see it changed, you have to admit that the subscription numbers have to go up considerably.

Put that way. I can agree.
I think the best thing to do, instead of feeding this thread... Is get working on our rings and make some Great scenarios then.

Tell your friends... ETC..

Thats all we can do...other than bitch at each other

/love

[rothimar]

Whether you love the game or wish to see it changed, you have to admit that the subscription numbers have to go up considerably.

And here we have it.

The question is... what can we do? I understand that Nevrax isn't my company, and I won't make lots of money if the game does well, but I won't have a game to play if it tanks. So I find myself trying to think of ways I can help. Personally, I believe that if some of you love the game and the people who play it... we should all be thinking of ways to direct some new people to the game.

I know some of you are reading this and thinking "what a dork" or some other more colorful name, but I am serious. Ryzom has a lot of potential, but it will never be fully realized if Nevrax is developing the way I live... paycheck to paycheck. I have already decided that I am going to write up a piece about my experiences with the game thus far and post it anywhere that even remotely relate to MMORPG's.

I am willing to do whatever I can with the time and resources I have to help boost the number of new players (particularly mainland). The Ryzom community has been absolutely wonderful to me so far, and perhaps I feel I owe something to it. What's an hour of my time writing something up, and a few minutes a day to post it a few places.

It's nothing compared to the kindness I've been shown, and the potential long-term enjoyment Ryzom offers.

[raynes]

You entire argument is that "Massive means millions"..

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

I don't think Raynes means that our servers should be up in the millions. However, the English server is probably only around 2000 people (not including RoS... and being generous), nothing close to what Nevrax needs to it to continue keeping the servers up, developing the game, marketing it, employing Jolt for CSR stuff, etc.
Its not "we need a WoW numbers and we need it now"... its "we need to add another 0 to that 2000 people."
As freddeh pointed out, he left the game out of boredom. There really isn't anything to do after a while. And thats what will happen with those joining the game now. They'll play, get tired of the same stuff, and go away. R2 will help in retaining them for a bit, but even that will get old (just like OPs did). There needs to be new content for those not interested in the Ring. The kitin lair is a step in the right direction. Just like the pvp content, if you go one way, you'll need to add something the other.

I was under the impression that the dev team admitted that the ring tools were too primative for them to use to create new content and that they would either have to create more powerful ones or simply go with their old method of doing things. Has that changed?

I love Ryzom. I really do. I think it has massive potential. but I wonder who does it more harm... the people who criticize it and point out its failings or the fanbois who sit and say "all is well!" and refuse to change their view of what the game once was. The brutal honesty is that unless the population goes up significantly (I don't mean millions... & Rushin, I log in 3-4 times a week. I just don't really grind anything anymore. No need for cats. I chat, I go pvp, thats about it.) that Nevrax is faced with some serious problems financially. The company is already on a skeleton staff and they've admitted that they are not out of bankrupcy. Whether you love the game or wish to see it changed, you have to admit that the subscription numbers have to go up considerably.

Exactly. I never said nor did I imply that Ryzom needs WoW subscriber numbers or even number in the 100,000 range (though I am sure that is what they would be thrilled with).

They do need to get 40K or 50K regular subscribers to make the game function like it should. To do that they need to do things differently than they have. Part of that is to embrace things that make other mmo's interesting. As you said the Kitin Lair is a step in the right direction. Lets just hope they keep on that path.

[raynes]

Put that way. I can agree.
I think the best thing to do, instead of feeding this thread... Is get working on our rings and make some Great scenarios then.

Tell your friends... ETC..

Thats all we can do...other than bitch at each other

/love

Can't work on those while at work. :) There is nothing wrong with a healthy discussion like this.

[xenofur]

There is nothing wrong with a healthy discussion like this.admit it, you comign back had nothing to do with the game. you were missing the forums! :D

[grimjim]

At this point I think we will have to disagree. You can be doubtful of the Kitin Lair all you want. The truth is that it's not something you would enjoy anyway. I see it will do nothing but add some much badly needed content to the game.

It's PvE content rather than PvP, that's a step back towards sanity, however, raids in all other games just end up a horrible grind.

Worst Case Scenario
--------------------
Kitin nest is a 'phat lewt' scenario with better weapons and armour than crafters can make being dished out for uber-bug killing and other shenanigans. This results in it being camped and exploited worse than Aen by the same usual suspects who then employ this superior gear to further throw the factions/races off balance contributing to the positive feedback loop that is throwing the whole game off whack.

Best Case Scenario
------------------
Rather than actual items the nest is rewarded with crafting patterns that existing crafters can use. Maybe these have some slight inherent bonus when crafted with special materials (to keep their numbers limited) maybe they just look cool, same with the weapons. The nest perhaps provides a non-PvP way to access the special materials that are otherwise provided by outposts, thus providing an alternate PvE revenue stream for that content and material and helping, hopefully, to redress some of the balance.

I'm just worried it'll be more like the worst than the best. At least a Kitin hive makes sense to be repeatable.

[grimjim]

Quick Reminder:
When taking into account how many people are playing Ryzom you have to remember the German and French servers and, by all accounts, the French server is much bigger than the English one in terms of numbers.

[marct]

~snip~

Best Case Scenario
------------------
Rather than actual items the nest is rewarded with crafting patterns that existing crafters can use. Maybe these have some slight inherent bonus when crafted with special materials (to keep their numbers limited) maybe they just look cool, same with the weapons. The nest perhaps provides a non-PvP way to access the special materials that are otherwise provided by outposts, thus providing an alternate PvE revenue stream for that content and material and helping, hopefully, to redress some of the balance.

I'm just worried it'll be more like the worst than the best. At least a Kitin hive makes sense to be repeatable.How about those plans not utilizing the same recipes that the masters already know.

[arfindel]

Massive doesn't have to mean enormous, it just means a lot of players acting within the same world, so long as that's more people than go on RTS or FPS servers you're probably safe calling it an MMORPG. ...

"Massive" is a term introduced in 1987 when most "massive" virtual relaity known was a MUD:)

I doubt that the people who introduced this term ever imaginned more than 10000 players at once present in a game, let alone they would have never imagined the technical capabilities to support them in a graphic game.

But the discussion about a more or less "massive" player base came from the different concepts of successful game.

Viewed from the SWG experience, Nevrax - even wanting that - cannot push SoR towards a mass game unless they risk losing on one side the existent player base and never have the technical, economical force of any of the huge corporations that throw themselves into the mass/enormous/massively massive games business adventure, on the other.

It's not a real choice here, there is no alternative but push towards the market differentiation they started time ago, maybe before the market could have even been really differentiated (which explains after all both WoW's success and the mediocre business success of SoR).

The only real alternatives reside in selecting the means by which to continue. NPE, even if it may suggest a world pretty different from what the mainland really is, has the huge role of a constants AD attracting people from all areas of the market. Of course some of them, lots of them will leave, but those people who are actually searching for _their_ kind of MMO (lots of people who will cry on these forums for their lost pre CU SWG are from this cathegory) will recognize their game in this mainland.

Nevrax have the time on their side, because statistically as we speak more and more potetial players are "born", they reach the age and financial position to be able to enjoy Ryzom. The more they resist on the market, the bigger player base chance they get.

Why are now all the entertainment corporations dreaming of getting all the players of all ages, sexes, education and purses in the same game? Because they treat MMOs like a single, simple product. Would suffice if any of them makes the effort to go next door to any Sociology department of most Universities and take some of their papers starting with 1993 or so on MUDs to see how complex such communities can be to understand that they are selling Skoda and Lamborghini as one single product. That they are treating Dom Perignon and Lemonade as the same coke selling it indistinctively to the whole world.

Yes indeed WoW made people drive and drink, but this doesn't mean they will for eternity all drink and drive the same stuff. Market studies should be made, see who wants the game for free, who is prepared to pay 2-10-15-30 whatever currency you want to compute. What are the social groups who will enjoy this and that.

There is next a second confusion. This time not specific to MMOs but to computer science in general, a rather inherited confusion: the dream of the shareholders to become each a part of the business miracle of Microsoft, Photoshop, Corel, Skype, Google, name it! But the IT business needs sooner or later to become a normal business, with normal increase and normal profit.

The Ring is already a toy for the slice of the market Nevrax chose at release. Journalists have praised a lot this tool, but who are the journalists? Aren't they by chance, most of them, part of the market share SoR is addressing to? The RIng is also a tool to gracefully invite this market share to support the virtual world they are loving.

Up to now Nevrax was leading a pretty coherent policy during the last 9 months, the time I've been here playing. Slow - but I love people who develop slowly (way more reliable) - but constant. Now I only dream that more of the solutions Jyudas suggested here, or even unforseen ones brought by the Ring will be implemented at a slow pace leaving the player base to get accustomed to each and less of the Spires kind( a nightmare communitywise imo) will end by proving that knowing your market is as important as being a well adapted squirrel compared to a dieing dinosaur.

[archaeos]

Because I didn't want to create a flamewar I edited my post ..and decided I won't even come up with arguements...The arguements above mentioned are totally out of proportions and not even worth discussing...Star Wars vs Ryzom...come On be serious will u.

[raynes]

OMG..I simply can't believe my eyes:
U are comparing Ryzom with starwars?Raynes ,come on be serious!!


No one is saying SWG and Ryzom have the same financial issues. They do share the RP vs. Regular content issues (which is what most of that discussion centered around). Furthermore if you had read most of what was talked about there, you would see that no where did anyone talk about Nevrax having lots of money.

Again my point wasn't on the amount of resources Nevrax has, but the way they have used them.

[archaeos]

Again my point wasn't on the amount of resources Nevrax has, but the way they have used them.
Yeah well but it helps,Especially when u compare the kid with only one apple next to the one who has a full basket with exotic fruits.
But hey let's enjoy our game shall we ..and seems u needed an opinion about possible scenarios for creating ;) I am your man ..we can quarrel a bit further IG ;)
(Btw this is still a Ryzom forum and not a judge Judy or SWG-advertizing board-evil grin-)

[brithlem]

Raynes,

They're using the 100K dappers it costs to swear allegiance to a Civilization to fund further game development...

Hail Extremist Kamis!
-Bri

[thanakar]

Always good to see another old time fanatic (even if you are Kami scum) Raynes... You have contributed more than the glee club ever will but will be fighting an uphill battle here. Like me and others, you will have to resign yourself to a shell of the game that was envisioned and the limitations we are left with as well as "undone" things. If you can live with them (as we all obviously chose to do by resubbing, even tho not satisfied) then stick around. Most of those disagreeing with you don't know what the game that was presented as to us was... just play and enjoy, you won't get any mileage even with valid grievances. We are invisible, thats why there are no responses to anything...

Could not agree with you more on parts of this. I've not logged into the game in months but I still hold out on hope that something will get better. The game as it is now is a shadow of what we tested over two years ago. THAT game had uniqueness that far outstripped what players are offered today. I still log in from now to now to say hello to friends and to tour lands you'll not find in any other game, but at the same time it pains me to see what the game has become. Players like you chose to stay the course but I moved on to other horizons, but Nevrax still gets my monthly fee in hopes they'll eventually get this thing off the ground.