Level Cap still 250?

[wakatack]

Hi All,

I played open beta, and promptly signed up way back sometime in 2004.... anyway.. played my Character to the follow rough levels... 200+ forage, 150+ heal, 100+ offense magic 100+ melee and 100+ jewel / armour craft....

Anyway for all you guys still here (seen your handles on the forums hehe), you may remeber when things were looking touch and go financially for the company... i'm guilty to say i jumped ship about then...

After playing EQ2 and making 60+ Inquistor and 50+ Sage... i got bored out of my mind... the biggest thing i love about SoR - the FREEDOM!!

Yup.. the above SoR stats i mentioned i jumped from Figter, to Mage, to Healer.. (Forage all the time.. best way to remove Death Penalty hehe), and finally i took up Crafting...



Anyway.. sorry for the boring background... i have come back and now 24 hours into the Trial (unlimted - AWESOME), its still as fun and as playable as it ever was!!!

Though.. from all i can find out (did try and search forums etc)... we are still capped at level 250...... 2 years on....

That is a little dissapointing, as when i left there were not only lots of 250's in some paths.. but some hard-core gamers had it in multiple paths...

(btw i left before outposts went live, but were on test server).


Is the level cap really 250? and will it (and when) ever be increased?

Wont stop my playing.. as i love this game... but curious to know..



THANKS!

[dakhound]

level cap is still 250,

doesnt make sense to raise it although I wouldnt complain,

the hardcore would be multi 300's within 2 weeks so wouldnt make much difference

[rushin]

It is, and I guess only a dev can give you a good answer. imo I’d say unlikely even in the long term.

wb by the way :)

[kibsword]

Yes its capped to 250 per branch, but with over 11,000 levels ingame noone has ever got them all.

[wakatack]

Thanks for the answers :)

i look forward to making it back to the mainland...

three last questions...

Does Choice, Excelent and Supreme mats still exist after Basic and Fine?
And are Medium & High plans it??

FINALLY - i noticed on the island that the Medium plan had equal stat boosts to item level.. while normal plan only has 1/2 (cant remember how it was when i played), what would high plan items have? 1.5 or 2x or ?? the level in stat boosts

Anyway.. thanks again - (Rushin & Kibsword i do remember :P)

[zanthar]

The mats are the way you remember with the addition of OP mats that are basically the same as the rest of the mats but you have to have them to craft the op plans I believe! If I'm correct the plans are the same except with the addition of op plans! As far as the boosts go noet sure cause I'm still pretty new! 8)

[grimjim]

I think more skills to learn would be a better approach than raising the cap.

[blaah]

FINALLY - i noticed on the island that the Medium plan had equal stat boosts to item level.. while normal plan only has 1/2 (cant remember how it was when i played), what would high plan items have? 1.5 or 2x or ?? the level in stat boosts medium armor has built in HP bonus value q/2.
heavy armor has built in HP bonus value q.
player can put another q/2 bonus to items.
craft plans (normal/med/high) has nothing to do with it.

[xolghost]

You could always browse the patch notes (http://www.ryzom.com/development/patch-notes) to see what exactly changed since you left until now... That'd explain the armor HP boost changes pretty well, as well as the overhauled requirements for them.

And yip, apart from OP mats, which are very specific additions to new OP related craft plans only, the 5 sorts and kinds still exist - even in their usual locations again.

[danlufan]

I think more skills to learn would be a better approach than raising the cap.

and not as easy to implement. At least the cap is ALOT easier to alter, as they have the ability to.

[truce1]

and not as easy to implement. At least the cap is ALOT easier to alter, as they have the ability to.


I think that given that the cap is dependant on the skills in game and balanced (as in scaling) for a reason, that in order to raise the cap, more skills need to be added.

But i agree, if your worried about keeping up with the joneses, then raising the cap is nothing but a slow burn. It wont make a diffrance.

[grimjim]

and not as easy to implement. At least the cap is ALOT easier to alter, as they have the ability to.

It's unnecessary and only increases 'grind' potential, not anything else in the game. Breadth and depth are better long term solutions. Level cap increase would be shortsighted.

[rothimar]

It's unnecessary and only increases 'grind' potential, not anything else in the game. Breadth and depth are better long term solutions. Level cap increase would be shortsighted.

I agree completely... it's a common mistake in many MMO's. Quantity over quality... *shudder* :)

[xolghost]

I'm next...:D and not as easy to implement. At least the cap is ALOT easier to alter, as they have the ability to.Really?

Raising the cap has been discussed a few times already... You'd have to look at it in a more global way.
Everything is tied to the current level cap being at 250.

Max harvest quality is 250, max at crafted items is 250, max constitution upgrade is tied to 250 (OK, 245 really...), and so forth...
By raising it to 300 (as an example), there needed to be implemented more actions, stanzas and upgrades being tied to 300 and being based on the existing ones. Even new 300ish regions needed to be implemented.
Would we be happy with upgraded actions only? Simple answer: no...
As an additional fact, it'd also widen the gap between new and established players - but that really doesn't matter much as it'd be only "some more levels to go".
Also, the whole balancing had to be tested really carefully. 10 more constitution upgrades and 50 levels worth of inherent armor boost do make a difference.
Raising the cap "only" would be more work since actions are tied to it.

Implementing really new stanzas isn't that easy as well...
It might be easiest to bring about new craft plans for new items or different looking ones.
New harvesting actions? Errrhmm... even more range, perhaps? *blinks out*
New magic users actions/stanzas? Higher sap or HP credit? A new PR atysian missile? Focus heal?
New melee actions? Focus credit? Aim-at-humanoid-crutch?
It seems I'm not in the most creative mood now as I can't really think of any completely new actions or stanzas that would fit into Atys without being imbalanced.

New skill trees might be the answer, as have been annouced already, and being not really combat related (not sure about that with the Taming tree...). But then again, new skill trees are new impact and require new actions without messing up the existing ones too much. As I mentioned above.. I'm not in a creative mood now ;)

[acridiel]

Not to speak of the Titles...
What comes after "Master of...", "Avatar of..."...

"God of..."?

Michael Flatley? :D

Acridiel

[rothimar]

Artist Formerly Known As...

Not to speak of the Titles...
What comes after "Master of...", "Avatar of..."...

"God of..."?

Michael Flatley? :D

Acridiel

[danlufan]

it would actually give the economy a boost, people cant craft all the weapons needed, and giving players who have maxed alot of skills something to actually do.

As with areas, arent they bringing the kitin lair into place.

Obviously new actions would need to be put in place, but look at some stanzas already they have... in use with weapon upto q 275 or something along those lines. So some stanzas already fit the bill.

[calel]

Boost the economy how exactly? I fail to see what you mean. Giving Master jewelers and Master armourers yet another painstakingly 300 extra levels to grind to keep up with demand of those who long to get to lvl 300 in fight, magic or forage. And then what? After 3 to 6 months we'd be on the same boat again.
The only thing I see it bringing is grinding or racing to the new cap. It may be good short-term, but it becomes old fast.

But what if you made something where those now maxed out skills are still usefull, rewarding? The temple event of Episode 2 showed us why being able to craft ql 250 ain't the same as having a craftinglevel of 250. That foraging at 250 can bring great rewards. There ought to be things like that for combatskills as well no?

I say rather than raising the cap, open up new interesting skills perhaps, new craft paths, new lands to forage in, more diversity and usefullness rather than more of the same mold.

[katriell]

and not as easy to implement. At least the cap is ALOT easier to alter, as they have the ability to.
Surely it's not that easy. It's not just about raising a few numbers. They'd be raising the caps on all branches, yes? So that includes crafting...need to implement higher quality plans in every craft branch. Foraging...need higher-quality material nexuses in higher-level regions, and higher actions and stanzas. Combat, obviously need higher-level regions, and several higher-level mobs, and actions/stanzas... Then to keep all this balanced.

[rothimar]

And additionally, where exactly will the higher level mobs be? new regions would need to be added for the higher level content to avoid unbalancing of existing content.

Increasing the level cap means lots of development time.

[riveit]

Boost the economy how exactly? I fail to see what you mean.

Your new q300 supreme heavy armor will make Aen suits fit only for young cheerleaders! :D

Just teasing, I don't want to start that old debate again. :)

In general, I like the idea of extending the level cap to 300. Certainly, it would be alot of work to do and perhaps is not the highest priority. But, I wonder if the people arguing against it would have preferred that the devs had capped levels at 200 or 150? More levels and more areas will give the game more depth. It also could allow the devs to remold the highest levels, rendering moot certain problems without nerfing anyone or anything already present.

[amitst]

I didn't see your question answered from earlier in the thread.

Medium quality and high quality give the same statistics: but they have much higher durability(hp) in proportion to the extra materials used. They are prettier and last longer, I don't see a reason to not make HQ...but I've had arguments over this...

[calel]

Medium quality and high quality give the same statistics: but they have much higher durability(hp) in proportion to the extra materials used. They are prettier and last longer, I don't see a reason to not make HQ...but I've had arguments over this...

Not necessarily Saoirse; the amount of materials used in a single plan greatly affects the maths on pre-craft stats, for the same reason HA sleeves and HA vests with the same recipe will give slightly different pre-craft stats for instance.

I hope this sheds some light on that question.


Hehe Riveit; you got me there. ;)

To answer your question; no, I wouldn't mind had the caps been lower, but then I would hope xp gain would be somewhat proportionate to secure the longevity of the game. It is however not necessarily about xp gain tho. Would you only feel satisfied with using a skill if it would end up giving you progression through xp gain? Or would reaching the cap, but getting a sense of accomplishment still every time you use that skill be rewarding enough? Experience and progression through experience levels is only one sort of reward.

In the end we want our actions to be meaningfull and usefull; and I think that's where most MMO's these days actually fail.

[truce1]

Your new q300 supreme heavy armor will make Aen suits fit only for young cheerleaders! :D

Just teasing, I don't want to start that old debate again. :)

In general, I like the idea of extending the level cap to 300. Certainly, it would be alot of work to do and perhaps is not the highest priority. But, I wonder if the people arguing against it would have preferred that the devs had capped levels at 200 or 150? More levels and more areas will give the game more depth. It also could allow the devs to remold the highest levels, rendering moot certain problems without nerfing anyone or anything already present.

I think the best way to add more, while leaving what we have alone. Would be to add a whole new skill line.



Social


Dances

jigs
Break
Kami Swing Dance
Somthin


Music

Race 1
Race 2
Race 3
Race 4


Art

Race 1
Race 2
Race 3
Race 4


Hovel builder

Race 1
Race 2
Race 3
Race 4




Of course this would be dependant on other things that people have been suggesting.

[acridiel]

Social

Dances

jigs
Break
Kami Swing Dance




So I can be the "Lord of the Dance"? ;) :p

But all jokes aside, I agree and would love to see such a thing :)

Acridiel

[truce1]

So I can be the "Lord of the Dance"? ;) :p

But all jokes aside, I agree and would love to see such a thing :)

Acridiel

Notice i did not add "yubo river dancing"

[certago]

Apart from having the level cap raised I would really love to see level 300 areas to explore in large groups of level 250 Homins all shivering and nervous about the horrors they seek to challenge.

Get that old thrilling feeling again, the feeling we had back in the days when we trekked at level 60 in groups about 40 fearless homins around atys.

Yeah, I would love to see that!

We could free the paths to the old lands... where we would have to help the rangers to establish new settlements by fighting off level 300 kitins and protecting harvesters diggin some new mats neede to build up the new settlements. Step by step we would fight back our old lands... with kitin nests to be destroyed everywhere... there it goes again *shuts phantasy down* enough for today.

[gillest]

Apart from having the level cap raised I would really love to see level 300 areas to explore in large groups of level 250 Homins all shivering and nervous about the horrors they seek to challenge.

Get that old thrilling feeling again, the feeling we had back in the days when we trekked at level 60 in groups about 40 fearless homins around atys.

Yeah, I would love to see that!

I second that big time :)

This could tho be the opening of increasing the lvl cap: I could be in favor of that increase but not as a priority..

In favor of new skills for sure: especially maybe some combat skill, this could be a real good move from nevrax as it would put high-lvl players back in newbies area and permit them to help new players as well.
Reverse side of the coin being that powerlvlers would be fast at 250 and then complain again... Can't keep everybody happy :)

Cap at 300 could be good as well after new areas are created if and only if it takes VERY LONG time to reach 300 for fighting trees and maybe shorter time for crafting trees..

Another funny thing about having lvl caped at 300 is for lower players: all those supreme q250 mats sleeping in G Halls would be fast on the market lol :)

[omsop]

Not to speak of the Titles...
What comes after "Master of...", "Avatar of..."...

"God of..."?

Michael Flatley? :D

Acridiel



Nah Posmo :P

only joking LOL

[wakatack]

Wow,

Thanks everyone!
I did read and appreciate all your responses :)

Still having heaps of fun on the island... found four bosses so far... (Kirosta, Oyncx, some Cray thing, and that bandit Arkten?) so look forward to finally beating them!!

Well i think i understand now where things are at (Foraging, Crafting) so hopefully i shall be see your all on the mainland sometime soonish...

Was Fyros before.. now Matis :P


THANKS!

[blaah]

Cap at 300 could be good as well after new areas are created if and only if it takes VERY LONG time to reach 300 for fighting trees and maybe shorter time for crafting trees..
a year ? 2 year ? 3 ?

assuming they raise skill to lvl 300 and make it 300k xp for lvl 300, it would only be around 6mil xp for those 50 lvl's.
using 600k for lvl 300, would give 20mil more xp to grind (currently there is 18mil or so for 0-250)... then what ?
also dont forget crafters. crafting around 2k boots just to 1 lvl is not fun (and that with cats.. wait, no lvl 300 cats ;-)

let the skill lvl be like it is. just make lvl 300 zone. who says that player needs to be same lvl as max zone ? and who tells that player needs to dig q300 mats from lvl 300 zone ?
i would be surprise if kitin lair would be that place. probably lvl 200+ with 100+ kitins jumping on you at once to make it look harder.

[sidusar]

Get that old thrilling feeling again, the feeling we had back in the days when we trekked at level 60 in groups about 40 fearless homins around atys.

If it's that old thrill you seek, introducing level 300 areas and raising the level cap to 300 will only accomplish that for a month before we start getting level 300 players again.

Personally I want to see level 300 areas introduced while still keeping the skill cap at 250. Give all us arrogant level 250 homins something to fear again ;)

As for raising the level cap, I believe it's high enough. I can understand that the players who've had a dozen master titles for a year now feel that the cap should be higher, but not everyone levels so fast. I myself have finally gotten one fight and one forage skill to 250 after a year and a half of playing. If it's raised to 300, it's probably going to take me another year to get there. I'd rather spent that time getting some other skills to 250 than doing more of the same skills. In a game where there are dozens of different skills to master, it shouldn't take months just to master one of those skills.

The reason I like the Ryzom skill system is because a more casual player can choose to focus on one skill only and get that one to 250 in relatively little time. They can then participate in outpost battles and kitin invasions without being totally outlevelled by the powergamers or the kitin that were designed to be challenging to those. Meanwhile the powergamers can level a dozen skills to 250 in the same time, giving them far more flexibility and options than the casual gamer who only has one skill mastered, but not so much more power that they can effortlessly swap the later aside.

A higher level cap only ensures that the players who dislike grinding are forced to do even more of it before they can play along with the highlevels. So I'd much rather see more skills to choose than a higher cap on the skills we have.

In fact, if the problem is that there's not enough to train, I'd rather see them split the magic trees (seperate skill for every spell after level 150) and the forage trees (seperate skill for every mat after level 150) than to raise the level cap. They'd match the fight and craft skills better that way. Not that I'd be happy with that, but for a short-term emergency solution, I think it's better than raising the cap to 300.

[certago]

If it's that old thrill you seek, introducing level 300 areas and raising the level cap to 300 will only accomplish that for a month before we start getting level 300 players again.

Personally I want to see level 300 areas introduced while still keeping the skill cap at 250. Give all us arrogant level 250 homins something to fear again ;)


Well thats about exactly what I ment :) I don't want to be level 300, I want to fight level 300 mobs. ;)

[gillest]

Personally I want to see level 300 areas introduced while still keeping the skill cap at 250. Give all us arrogant level 250 homins something to fear again ;)

A higher level cap only ensures that the players who dislike grinding are forced to do even more of it before they can play along with the highlevels. So I'd much rather see more skills to choose than a higher cap on the skills we have.

+1 on that one :)

[norvic]

If we got a 300 cap how long before people start asking for a 350 cap etc. World has been shaped for 250, atm in somthing like EP2 a lvl 50 could contribute with the lvl 250s but if the region was designed with lvl 300's in place the divide would be great.

Would be nice for some new challenges for sure, or trees, lets see what the Kitin lair brings us to start but a cap increase would be a slippery slope to an unbalanced world imo.

Who knows somwhere down the line, remember Atys "1", maybe just maybe the next step...................

[borg9]

Who knows somwhere down the line, remember Atys "1", maybe just maybe the next step...................

The Saga of Ryzom is no longer a Saga ... its been rebranded as..... Ryzom

I am suprised the 1 is still featured on the loading screen.

[sidusar]

Well thats about exactly what I ment :) I don't want to be level 300, I want to fight level 300 mobs. ;)
Ah sorry, I misunderstood then :)

But, I wonder if the people arguing against it would have preferred that the devs had capped levels at 200 or 150?
Sorry Riveit, forgot you asked. No, I wouln't mind if the devs had capped the levels at 200. Though 150 would've been too easy. The idea with the Ryzom skill system is, in my opinion, to find a level cap so that every player can master one skill, but no player can master all skills.

We already have players with every skill at 150, so that's too low to accomplish the second part. But I'm afraid a cap at 300 would be too high to accomplish the first part. 250 seems a reasonable balance. 200 might've been as well, if we hadn't had outpost giving out experience catalyzers.

More levels and more areas will give the game more depth.
Agreed that more areas will give the game more depth, but why would those new areas have to be higher level ones? And even if they are, why would the skill cap have to be raised with them?

Disagreed that more levels will give the game more depth. It would just give us increased damage 14, circular attack 10, fear 15, gentle speed 7 and crafting option for focus boost 26. Now more levels in new skill trees with new skills, that would give the game more depth.

It also could allow the devs to remold the highest levels, rendering moot certain problems without nerfing anyone or anything already present.
True, but what kind of problems did you have in mind?

It's still a nerf really. How is raising the caps to 300 any different than taking 50 levels off everyone's skills? The netto effect is the same: 50 more levels to train until you've mastered the skill.

Unless they want to add some sort of specilisation system. Letting us choose one skill that we can train to 300, and keeping all the others capped at 250. In that case I can see raising the level cap having a purpose.

[karmelit]

I am happy with the cap at 250 and agree that it would not make sense to raise it higher for the reasons already mentioned.

That said, craft skills could be added to as was the addition of OP mats. But why only give us OP weaponry? Let's get some more variation in the way armor look. Not asking for any special stats though hehe

[ajsuk]

It's unnecessary and only increases 'grind' potential, not anything else in the game. Breadth and depth are better long term solutions. Level cap increase would be shortsighted.
^^ Agree.

Anyone who knows me knows how much it hurts when I have to agree w/ this guy, so I figure it's probably the best way for me to express how bad I think the idea really is.

This thread is very old but the points raised in it are still valid so it's worth unearthing and repeating. I urge the devs to abandon their planned increase in level cap as announced here (http://www.ryzom.com/data/mail/newsletter_en.htm), it's a cheap alternative to actual content and I for one think the resources could be far better utilized elsewhere. Get a grip people!

[sx4rlet]

^^ Agree.

Anyone who knows me knows how much it hurts when I have to agree w/ this guy, so I figure it's probably the best way for me to express how bad I think the idea really is.



QFE....

Jayce, you are getting even scarier agreeing with him...

[velogfx]

^^ Agree.

Anyone who knows me knows how much it hurts when I have to agree w/ this guy, so I figure it's probably the best way for me to express how bad I think the idea really is.

This thread is very old but the points raised in it are still valid so it's worth unearthing and repeating. I urge the devs to abandon their planned increase in level cap as announced here (http://www.ryzom.com/data/mail/newsletter_en.htm), it's a cheap alternative to actual content and I for one think the resources could be far better utilized elsewhere. Get a grip people!

it's alway a matter HOW they'll do this. i hope we get some hint soon. rising levelcap connected with new highlevel content (its still only a small part of kitin lair opened) could be nice.

the other thing is... how many multi 250 chars do we have? many. higher level cap and doing some advertising could bring new players into ryzom and im sure leveling 1-300 in one skill will be faster than leveling 4 skills from 250 to 300. so the multiskill gap will be smaller. but thats just my 2c :)

[jwenting]

the other thing is... how many multi 250 chars do we have? many. higher level cap and doing some advertising could bring new players into ryzom and im sure leveling 1-300 in one skill will be faster than leveling 4 skills from 250 to 300. so the multiskill gap will be smaller. but thats just my 2c :)

A lot, actually.
I know several who have mastered all terrain digging, a few who have mastered magic and several melee skills, more than a few with multiple branches (nog just pieces) of craft masters, and some of those are the same people.

Noone I know has (I think) mastered everything, but some are getting close.

[ajsuk]

Funny, seems to me like there's a severe shortage of people with multiple masters left. Yes, lets make the grind even more excruciating so we can get rid of those who _are_ left.

[final60]

instead of raising level cap, give titles for multiple trees completed

[sidusar]

I would add in my support, but look, my posts about it from 3 years ago are still right up there and still just as valid. :D

the other thing is... how many multi 250 chars do we have? many.

Multi-250 chars are not a bad thing. In fact that's exactly the point of the Ryzom skill system: the long-term players can have many skills at 250, and have much more flexibility, while new players can get one skill to 250 in relatively little time and then already 'play along with the big guys', without needing years of grinding to catch up first.

Already I hear many complain that they feel they have to be 250 before they can really participate in the important events, and I'm inclined to agree. Outpost battles are dominated by the few hardcore level 250 people. Events are tailored to those people and only have 5 star purple mobs anymore. If you don't have a usefull level 250 skill, you're stuck to healing or being useless at those events.

Raise the level cap, in 6 months the hard core of the players will be that level, and new players will be even further behind. Do you want to advertise to new potential players: "Come join Ryzom - now with even more grinding required before you can participate in anything!"

[acridiel]

Oh, yeah!

"Ryzom, now with 50% more GRIND!"

Sounds like a nice, catchy Slogan for a new commercial run.
XD


Iīm shocked to admit, that I agree with Ajusk.
;)

Better other new things, before even more of the same old.

CU
Acridiel

[velogfx]

or maybe just new ways to level? beyond plain grinding?

[sidusar]

Well yes, there we're at the heart of the matter. The arguments of those defending a raise of the level cap always come down to:
"Rising levelcap connected with new highlevel content could be nice."
"Rising levelcap connected with new ways to level could be nice."
"Rising levelcap connected with new skills and abilities could be nice."

And I'd agree, but think about this:
New highlevel content would already be nice by itself.
New ways to level would already be nice by itself.
New skills and abilities would already be nice by itself.

All of those things would be more than welcome without a rise of the levelcap. A rise of the levelcap by itself though, without any of that to accompany it ... not nice.

If something is only nice "with something else", why not just implement the something else and leave the not-nice thing out of it, hmm? :)

[setstyle]

So why do some players have a crapload of 250 skills? Because there was never much to do with them until outposts came out. Master a skill, start training another. Raising the level cap will not make up for the lack of content that has plagued us for years. It's just a piss-poor effort to keep us momentarily distracted.

Even with new content, as has been pointed out before (3 years ago ;)), why would higher skill levels be necessary? Look at the current kitin patrols -- they already require a concentrated effort of 250-level characters, so what's the problem working within the boundaries we already have?

For the most part, I'm a casual gamer, and if I wanted to have all my hard work negated by an increased level cap, I'd already be shelling out $20 for each WoW expansion.

This is by far the worst idea any of the 3 Ryzom owners has ever come up with. Here's to hoping they realize it in time.

[katriell]

Curiosity:
What do Aniro and Leanon think of the idea of raising the level cap?

[jwenting]

I would add in my support, but look, my posts about it from 3 years ago are still right up there and still just as valid. :D



Multi-250 chars are not a bad thing. In fact that's exactly the point of the Ryzom skill system: the long-term players can have many skills at 250, and have much more flexibility, while new players can get one skill to 250 in relatively little time and then already 'play along with the big guys', without needing years of grinding to catch up first.

Already I hear many complain that they feel they have to be 250 before they can really participate in the important events, and I'm inclined to agree. Outpost battles are dominated by the few hardcore level 250 people. Events are tailored to those people and only have 5 star purple mobs anymore. If you don't have a usefull level 250 skill, you're stuck to healing or being useless at those events.


Correct on both counts.
But as to events, that's always the same in any MMO.
I've never played one where there were significant events tailored at anyone but the "endgame" players (and yes, the term doesn't really apply to Ryzom because of the multiple skill trees).

Raising the level cap is a change aimed at those same high level/high time players, to keep them interested.
It would require (almost) adding new content for those players, new areas with higher level mobs and resources, probably higher level outposts to fight over (after all, you are lvl300 magic, you want a q300 maga amp,a level 300 swordsman wants his q300 vedice or tekorn).

Never (in any mmo) is real thought given to adding content and events for midlevel players (let alone lowlevel ones, but those at least have a lot to look forward to for the future, if they're not put off staying by the lack of events they can participate in).

Of course any event geared towards lowlevel players would be quickly made pointless as highlevel players roll in and do in seconds what was designed to take those lowlevel players half an hour, making organising them and keeping them meaningful rather difficult. Some mmos try to fix that by placing level caps on where people can go (so high level players can't even enter low level areas and vv), Ryzom doesn't (and the nature of Ryzom of course makes that impossible, as you can be high level in one thing and low level in another).

[kalindra]

Does that mean I'll still be able to use my healing in leveling teams instead of just OPs and boss hunts ? I'm in ! Joke... I really don't want to grind some more spam-a-nuke-button for 50 more levels. *yawns* Give us new Skill branches to level to 250 instead... like cooking, raising animals or crops... something like that.

[final60]

we have alot of skill points acquired from multiple masters that can be spent on new skills. They can be a cost of 1000 points or something, then we still have the reason to grind without the need for devs to work on level cap.

its better and easy for titles for multiple branches reached, new skills at high cost of skill points. perhaps skills that can only be unlocked when all branches of tree have been completed.

[hemera]

WTT: 15000 melee skill points for 6 new melee skills pls!!!! :)

[velogfx]

we have alot of skill points acquired from multiple masters that can be spent on new skills. They can be a cost of 1000 points or something, then we still have the reason to grind without the need for devs to work on level cap.

its better and easy for titles for multiple branches reached, new skills at high cost of skill points. perhaps skills that can only be unlocked when all branches of tree have been completed.

completly disagree. new players will need years to get them. new titles for multiple branches are ok. but new stanzas or skills that make an old player even more uber are not ok.

[jwenting]

completly disagree. new players will need years to get them. new titles for multiple branches are ok. but new stanzas or skills that make an old player even more uber are not ok.

Correct.
The problem is how to keep Ryzom interesting for old players while not making those old players so much more powerful than younger players that those are completely pushed away from the game.

One of the nice things about Ryzom is that it's quite possible for younger players to work in teams with older ones and still have similar skill levels (albeit at different things).
A multiple master might well have some skills below 100 for example, and able to use those together with someone fresh off Silan without completely nerfing them.

Adding new skill trees will continue in that tradition, by making everyone young again in those (at least for a while).
It is however not (as you seem to think) easier than raising the level cap. It's in fact far harder.
Not counting time needed to create new areas to contain lvl300 critters and mats (and the associated lvl310 named and 320 bosses), raising the level cap might be as simple as changing a single constant in the codebase somewhere (not knowing the codebase I can't tell if that's all that's required, but it could be).
Creating new skill trees requires far more, and large changes to the existing regions as well (for fishing, you'd need something to fish, new tools and maybe craft plans and skills, you'd need to add things to do with the gathered materials or noone'd bother with them, etc.).

It would be great to see, but the development effort would be a lot larger than it would be for raising the level cap (which would keep people busy for longer than a few weeks I think, especially harvesters and crafters, casters and melee fighters might reach the new caps more quickly no matter how high they're set).

But no matter what is done, some people will no doubt complain about it.
If there's an entire new skill tree, those who've become used to being ueber in everything will probably not like being "forced down to the level of a n00b" because they can't impress less experienced players with their ueberness.
If the levelcap is raised (as seen) those same people complain that they're no longer top dog and have to grind to once again become top dog.

Those of us who actually play the game because we like to play it rather than because we must and have to beat everyone else welcome either or both enhancements because it gives us more to do and more time to do it before we've reached that highest level and there's nothing more to do.
I'd love that, even if I'm far from being a multiple master (I'm not even a single master yet, though creeping towards it, and being called a useless idiot by some for taking months and months to reach that).
For me, reaching a mastery (except for forage, which feeds my real passion which is crafting) does little but mean I can't use that skill any more except in very limited scenarios like bosshunts and pvp (and I don't do pvp on general principle, and bosshunts happen maybe once a day on average).

[kalindra]

Don't let anyone call you a useless fool. There's always a need for people with lower skills on leveling teams. If no one had a heal or nuke level below 250, it would be damn hard to find someone to do plods, kinchers or even hornchers with. Hell, it's ALREADY a challenge to find non-master Healers and Nukers as it is. And don't worry, it takes me a bit more than a year to master any skill as well. I just hate soloing combat skills.

The ones who think that only masters and PvPers are worthy of the good stuff are the ones we should call clueless fools ! Diggers, hunters and crafters are essential too : they're the ones who allow the uber awesome "epic" gear to be crafted.

/end rant. Yay for lower lvl people !

[ajsuk]

Yeah, I'm still waiting to hear who these people are 'cos I rarely hear such things from our community. Are they made up or do I have the wrong faction chat? :p

[gcaldani]

Didn't noticed this interesting topic before.

My opinion didn't changed over time: don't think raising the skill cap is of any use actually.

What the game needs is more sand in the box, unfortunately seems the devs have a different opinion (or maybe the manpower is not enough to think for some big addition).

In a game conceptually built around grinding, where the player is left free to do whatever he want and free to give any meaning around the grind (building his own story), what's really needed is 'diversification' and 'variety'.

Raising skill cap would means a big change in all the living creatures or the addition of new areas....
How much strong would be a lvl 300 player with much more than 300 dodge / parry against the actual animals, even the prime roots versions?

New sand in the box means:

1. Social clothing;
2. Player and guild housing;
3. More interaction with tribes;
4. Consumables and storage points with trade routes;

5. Make reasons for the homins to level (or live) in the most underused regions. HAving only 2-3 regions crowded (i'm good today or i would have said 1 region only, Void, that's the most boring place of Atys, that has also lower environment sounds, because of the absurd GF past decision) and all the rest empty is a bad game design. I leveled a lot in that regions just for the fun (even if not actually efficient), ie: I raised my whole rifle skill mostly in Heretic Hovel, of course i was all time alone in region. Also, Tribes never use mounts, enemy tribe patrols (-50.01 and lower fame) don't attack a player, friendly tribes help only if their camp is directly affected bt mobs.

6. An economy that really works. is it so difficult to implement upkeeps for apartments, guild halls and, more important, the Outposts? Actually, once a guild has got his OP, there is nothing to do apart of collecting the mats (oh, i forgot the mats go just in the guild hall without any effort!!) and defending the op if it's attacked (considering the amount of OPs around, it happens very few for the average guild). What happens if a guild without a GH wins an OP? His OP become the GH only accessible from there? And what happens to the stuff if the OP is lost? Has anyone tested this situation? Or you don't consider a guild without a GH? It's unlikely to happen, but the situation is real and should be considered.

Well, i stop now or this post start becoming a rant instead of a personal opinion.

Only one last thing: what's the meaning of the star system devs have changed another time?
I don't think they really listened to the people otherwise they would have considered all the reasons behind:
1. we are speaking of the 'con' system;
2. what a 'con' system do? Gives an indication about the strength of an opponent
3. Ryzom original idea was to be different from other MMO, giving only an 'indication', leaving the player to learn the real strength. That was an awesome idea. Also, having some mob with a 'fake' color, was an addition to the learning lessons for all the homins. The new system (pre last-patch) was just a dumb change, making ryzom with the usual average leveling system of any MMO that, of course, didn't made new people so happy as they don't know the old system. Of course, because not everyone think more than 5 minutes before doing things, it was broken for the new players (with an incredible skull giving them totally 'no information' about the mob, regardless the fact that's called 'con' system) but also for the old players, because they don't have to remember things and how life works in atys, but they just have the level showed. A reward? Nope. Just less content to consider (or remember) while living in Atys. Okay, they listened the community and changed it another time. Good? of course not. The final decision is a compromise, because there is no chance devs could admit they were totally wrong. So, the question is: what's the meaning of this actual 'con' system, where the colors are even not respected, because they still rely to the actual level of the mob? It's just more confusing.
It's so hard to understand that the colors were not linked (in the original vision) with the mobs but with the regions?

Well, i don't want to stop without saying that, regardless of the wrong decisions by devs, Ryzom is still a wonderful game.

Unfortunately Atys will never get more population and, probably, the vets will not really want to (despite they say the contrary), as long as WG can run the game: they have the power and like things as they are, because there is no real competition now and they can 'own' everything.

Damn, i wanted to end the post with a good statement, but seems i cannot do.

Sorry for this, i still love ryzom.

[memiki]

Correct.

Those of us who actually play the game because we like to play it rather than because we must and have to beat everyone else welcome either or both enhancements because it gives us more to do and more time to do it before we've reached that highest level and there's nothing more to do.
I'd love that, even if I'm far from being a multiple master (I'm not even a single master yet, though creeping towards it, and being called a useless idiot by some for taking months and months to reach that).
For me, reaching a mastery (except for forage, which feeds my real passion which is crafting) does little but mean I can't use that skill any more except in very limited scenarios like bosshunts and pvp (and I don't do pvp on general principle, and bosshunts happen maybe once a day on average).

Don't let anyone tell you that you are useless. You are playing the game like you want. If you look how long I have been here well my highest level is 187
I am not interested in getting to the top. I play the game cause I enjoy the way I play. Of course I do have 3 alts that I play around with also. But we all play differently and that is a good thing. I don't do pvp, either. not interested in that.

[kalindra]

I wonder, no one was ever stupid enough to call me a useless fool to my face either. Slacker, lazy, maybe. But useless ? Hell no !

I wonder who's spreading such misconceptions and fallacies about the game. They need to be caught and spanked hard.

I started healing at outpost battles at lvl 75. And I loved it. I started boss hunting around lvl 150 or even before. No one is useless unless they're voluntarly avoiding to make themselves useful. That's in no way related to levels, the only determining factor is the attitude of the person behind the keyboard.

Back to topic : more grind is not a longevity solution. Granted I never, ever grind, I just imagine people's annoyment over losing their 4-10-35 hard earned masters. And the lowbies being slightly discouraged by an even higher mountain to climb. 300 is a lot. 250 is already a big number. What are we going to do with all those new skill points ? We already have too many !

[acridiel]

Iīll ask ;)

But could take a while, 'cause of most people using the IG Boards, if any at all.
(Iīll ask in both, of course.)

CU
Acridiel

P.S.: No-one is useless. You can always act as bait ^^

[sidusar]

Not counting time needed to create new areas to contain lvl300 critters and mats (and the associated lvl310 named and 320 bosses), raising the level cap might be as simple as changing a single constant in the codebase somewhere (not knowing the codebase I can't tell if that's all that's required, but it could be).
And that's exactly what I'm afraid they'll do, and exactly what would be very very bad.

Seeing their progress on the kitin lair so far, I don't believe this dev team has the manpower to really add several new level 300 regions within the next year. Okay, so maybe the kitin lair will be level 300, so then you'll have one little corner of Atys that's actually appropriate to a level 300 player, while all the current highlevel content becomes easy to them. While all the current purple bosses and kitin patrols can be killed by just 3 level 300 players. They would actually make even more of the current content useless to the "endgame" players that way.

Unless... unless they 're-level' the current regions... it'd be relatively easy to turn Enchanted Isle into a purple zone and then turn Loria into the new level 300 zone... and do something similar for all the other continents as well.

But even then raising the level cap still only presents the new players with an even higher mountain to climb before they can really play along with the high-level events. Like I say, I like the Ryzom skill system exactly because even casual players can have one skill at level 250 in relatively little time and then have enough raw power to at least compete with the powerlevellers. For some of us, that 'relatively little time' was already a year and half; imagine if we needed another 50 levels... I wouldn't enjoy needing two and a half years of playing before I can actually even hit an event kitin. :rolleyes:

And to quote a guildie who's unsubscribed and thus can't post here:

Auww, come on now- I'm sure you all are just dying to get your hands on Accurate Attack 12, Hit Rate 14, and Poison 7. This will tremendously enrich your gaming experience, right?

[chibiarc]

Raising the cap adds nothing, new areas add nothing, new mobs add nothing. To me the actual game system is exhausted. Players are smart, if they were happy with a new land and new mobs the ryzom ring would hit like a bomb.

What I wish for would be a new skill tree, but wait, a skill tree with a new game mechanic.

Not just spiritual magic with dark and holy and 250 grind levels, nay, something new. Musical Instruments? Okay bad example bad you get the point. Something the other skills can be incorporated into (craft a traditional tryker flute) aswell as complete new mechanics e.g. music learning stuff, earn chords whatever.

I remember reading about some of those visions in the early ryzom papers, anyone know what I mean?

Cheers,
arc

[katriell]

Yeah, I'm still waiting to hear who these people are 'cos I rarely hear such things from our community. Are they made up or do I have the wrong faction chat? :p
Seconded.


If you look how long I have been here well my highest level is 187
My hat's off to you. :)

[sx4rlet]

Raising the cap adds nothing, new areas add nothing, new mobs add nothing. To me the actual game system is exhausted. Players are smart, if they were happy with a new land and new mobs the ryzom ring would hit like a bomb.

What I wish for would be a new skill tree, but wait, a skill tree with a new game mechanic.


Yup I agree.
I once posted something about a creature-handler-skill, where you would need an item to order the creature, and the creature needed to be trained, and higher levels could get different creatures, etc.

@Sehraci / sidusar, lol nice quote!

[acridiel]

While all the current purple bosses and kitin patrols can be killed by just 3 level 300 players.

Currently, I know a few (lvl 250) people who can do just that.
Those guys really know what theyīre doing.
Iīve even heard rumors of some besting some boss in a two-man team.

CU
Acridiel

[sidusar]

Yes, I know Acri, but it requires some skill, and is not nearly as easy as how a 3-man team of 250s can effortlessly swap any 220-boss aside. :)

Or how a 3-man team of 300s could presumably do the same with a 270-boss...

[kalindra]

Yup, you need to know what you're doing, and then killing a 250 boss with 3 people is perfectly doable. Well some of them at least. Others would just take waaay too long but still be doable. Doing them with less people is also more challenging and fun in a way.

Take Clopperketh, he's just a little lvl 120 Boss in OO. But his minions can wipe a full team of multi-masters in no time when they rush if they don't know what they're doing. Managed to kill him, just Daemion, his alt and me. And it wasn't exactly easy. Just too bad he doesn't give better (Higher Quality) mats for the challenge.

New skill branches, new mechanics, new craft plans, craftable fashion or "social" clothing, craftable and tradeable consumables/foods that you make from some "food" mats that can be obtained by raising animals and crops or by foraging.

[gcaldani]

There are some 270 bosses that can be killed by a 3-man team of 250s, actually. Some can be even killed by a 2-man 250s.

[final60]

There are some 270 bosses that can be killed by a 3-man team of 250s, actually. Some can be even killed by a 2-man 250s.
yeah it is (http://www.dcpryzom.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;pic=51)

completly disagree. new players will need years to get them. new titles for multiple branches are ok. but new stanzas or skills that make an old player even more uber are not ok.

the skills dont need to be overpowered, perhaps just different ( like the winged casting spell back) no one player can ever be uber in this game, even if he has double the power of another player..I doubt the capability of devs for coding actual new content, but titles and rehashing some effects maybe, just a sort of gesture!?

[velogfx]

ok. and maybe we all are wrong? we are getting some small patches with some bug fixing, and some part of new (old) stuff and thinking thats all the new small team can do. and maybe thats the point where we all are wrong. there are many things already done or half done, made by nevrax, and gameforge that are just not in game. and just look on the patch numbers that changed with winchgate. we got patch 1.7.0 what happens when we hit 2.0? maybe after 5 years, its time to move beyond "New Beginning", build up the capitals to be real capitals as on the concepts and just grow! who knows ;)

zorai1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/zorai_01.jpg)
zorai2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/zorai_11.jpg)

tryker1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/tryker_02.jpg)
tryker2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/tryker_11.jpg)

matis1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_01.jpg)
matis2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_13.jpg)

matis1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_01.jpg)
matis2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_13.jpg)

fyros1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/fyros_05.jpg)
fyros2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/fyros_06.jpg)

i know im OT ;) and i know most of you old players are disillusioned but im relatively new and can still dream ;) let's see what the future will bring.

[jwenting]

Yeah, I'm still waiting to hear who these people are 'cos I rarely hear such things from our community. Are they made up or do I have the wrong faction chat? :p

Only one person in kara chat, and he's on my ignore list after hurling nothing but insults at me for days on end.
But several more in guild chat, I've since left that guild (I won't name names of either guild or people, those involved know who they are).
And one or two in uni alluded to it, without actually saying it.

It doesn't happen here as much as in other mmos, which is one of the reasons I like Ryzom so much, the people are overall just so much friendlier, but it does happen.

As to new areas, give people a map editor and an incentive to use it and they will.
Maybe make it a competition for new areas in each land (including the pr) with the winners in each region getting their creation built into the game permanently and receiving say half a year free play time as a reward.
New mob classes slightly more difficult, but it's always possible to make new higher versions of existing mobs, and the same system might work there as well, certainly for ideas and concept art and maybe for the 3D models as well (though fewer people have the skill to use those than some level editor).

The main reasons the ring never took off is that scenarios aren't persistent and aren't a part of the regular environment, not that it's not a good idea to have something like it.

[stijn]

Unless... unless they 're-level' the current regions... it'd be relatively easy to turn Enchanted Isle into a purple zone and then turn Loria into the new level 300 zone... and do something similar for all the other continents as well.


It seems to me this might be the easiest way to do it. Switch the 250 zones (or actually any zone) to 300, and one lower lvl zone to 200.

This might in a RP-way be explained like some huge cataclysm or outbreak of the Goo in the higher lvl regions orso. I for one would like that chance, seeing your usuall hunting spots being turned into something completely new, this way you can get still get the sense of exploring again, while still familiar to the old.

[r1vver]

zorai1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/zorai_01.jpg)
zorai2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/zorai_11.jpg)

tryker1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/tryker_02.jpg)
tryker2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/tryker_11.jpg)

matis1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_01.jpg)
matis2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_13.jpg)

matis1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_01.jpg)
matis2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/matis_13.jpg)

fyros1 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/fyros_05.jpg)
fyros2 (http://www.velogfx.com/trash/ryzom/fyros_06.jpg)

requesting links or archive with such game related art/consepts
well, i have some, but i know that there is exist more than i seen

[velogfx]

requesting links or archive with such game related art/consepts
well, i have some, but i know that there is exist more than i seen


hehe they are all here ;)
http://www.ryzom.com/en/webkit_1.html
just download all of them and check it. there is some other verry verry nice stuff in it.

[sidusar]

It seems to me this might be the easiest way to do it. Switch the 250 zones (or actually any zone) to 300, and one lower lvl zone to 200.

This might in a RP-way be explained like some huge cataclysm or outbreak of the Goo in the higher lvl regions orso. I for one would like that chance, seeing your usuall hunting spots being turned into something completely new, this way you can get still get the sense of exploring again, while still familiar to the old.
I agree and would very much like to see that too. :)

However, I still don't want a raise of the level cap. As I already said in one of those 3-year old posts in this same thread, I'd much prefer having level 300 zones while still keeping the level cap at 250. They'd be truly dangerous zones were even a level 250 meleer in full parry HA would have to sneak again. :D

Giving us level 300 zones and raising the level cap to 300 too wouldn't be nearly as cool, because it would only give that effect for 3 months before the hard core is level 300 again. And raising the level cap to 300 while not having any 300-zones, even worse... :(

As to new areas, give people a map editor and an incentive to use it and they will.
We have a map editor, it's the incentive to use it we need. The 5 best scenarios being perma-hosted by the devs is a good start already. But we've been saying that for years now. :rolleyes:

The main reasons the ring never took off is that scenarios aren't persistent and aren't a part of the regular environment
I disagree on the second part. That the scenarios aren't part of the regular environment is one of the strengths of the Ring, because it allows people to make things that would be never fit into the 'official world' of Ryzom. Like Santa's workshop for example. ;)

[iceaxe68]

Interesting discussion.

I know I've avoided using some of my higher level skills maybe because I didn't want to hit 250 and no longer be able to go hunting in leveling teams using those skills. A higher cap would give a little more breathing room.

On the other hand, maybe after 230 dings I just got a bit tired of those skills?

Lately it's more fun to go hunting named and bosses and forget about XP and dings. Even when nothing's up, it's still a fun romp around Atys.

OK, even more honestly, lately I log in at my usual unpopular hour, see that nobody I know is online, look around a little, and log back out.

The truth is, I love Ryzom for the story and the social aspects way more than the levels or the mechanics. I'm not particularly competitive, nor motivated by goal chasing. I like doing fun things with fun people.

So, I don't really care whether they raise the cap or not. I just wish they'd advertise and get more people in the game.


On a side note - Iala, I see you've played as many hours in your 4 months as I have in my three years. (Granted, we lost some months when the servers were down.) I hardly think you're a slow leveler.

[jwenting]

thanks Sasi. If you're ever on while I am, I'd be happy to go hunt with you somewhere.

[kalindra]

Yeah, I have a pike that wants to poke things if you catch me online and wanna hunt with me, like in the good old times. I'd be very happy to. :D

[deadelf]

So, I don't really care whether they raise the cap or not. I just wish they'd advertise and get more people in the game.


Interesting thing I saw on the german part of the forums....
http://forums.ryzom.com/showthread.php?t=34660

Seems they at least have flyers to give away and put up.
We need something similar.

[ajsuk]

Now I'm totally wicked envious. :p OK, maybe not...

As much as I'd like to see some advertising and some new blood I still think it's too soon to pump any actual cash in to. Nothing they have done so far says to me: Ryzom is much less likely to re-fail now.

[kalindra]

They're still doing better than Gameforge... but Gameforge wasn't very hard to beat... :rolleyes:

And anyone with Adobe Acrobat or even OpenOffice could have made those flyers... you only need the fonts and a bit of knowledge on Photoshop and you're done...

[ajsuk]

Yeah, I generally go by the rule: If I could of done it, it's pretty poor. :p

[kalindra]

Well maybe they expect us to do just that and make one.

[thlau]

Once a month I reevaluate the pros and cons about returning to Ryzom or not.

The So I can imagine several different approaches to raise the level cap beyond 250.
The first one and most likely - because in my humble opinion most stupid one - is to raise the cap by another 50 level to level 300 and to add new level 300 regions with a similar composure of creature we all know from the previous 250 level. Reuse of the old PvP maps comes to my mind there. That would be something Winchagate could promote as 'new content' but it actually won't be, it just will be the same content just in a bigger box.

More intriguing to me would be just to drop the cap, so that you still can gain xp and level after the 250 is reached. Best would it be if in the same move the super herbies would be reverted to their original state, that way the max level would be less definable, and less final, because character development is never at an end.

Trini

[acridiel]

... that way the max level would be less definable, and less final, because character development is never at an end.

Trini

Also, called "Hardcore-Grinders-Hell" ;) :p

CU
Acridiel

[katriell]

Yeeeaah...

Another flaw in Thlau's idea is that it would give grinders a potentially insurmountable advantage over casual players and those who simply prefer not to focus on levelling.

[velogfx]

Yeeeaah...

Another flaw in Thlau's idea is that it would give grinders a potentially insurmountable advantage over casual players and those who simply prefer not to focus on levelling.

hmm as it is now? ;) ryzom is all about grind. you grind level, you grind fame, you grind everything. of course you can just step in and live on atys but still you need to grind if you dont want to end as a noob. thats the fact. so it doesn't matter if you grind 250 or 300 (although raising lvl cap without appropriate content doesnt make sense imo)

[thlau]

Yeeeaah...

Another flaw in Thlau's idea is that it would give grinders a potentially insurmountable advantage over casual players and those who simply prefer not to focus on levelling.
I know that my approach is very pragmatic, but I don't believe that the advantage of the grinder over the casual player would really be that noticeable. I vividly remember the old starter islands that were designed to allow a character to reach level 20 in a controlled environment, getting harvesting beyond level 20 became painfully slow with only level 20 raw materials available, fighting was the same with only level 23 Kipee available. So sure an unmodifed dodge value of 260 might be nice, but is it really so much better than 250? Especially if the only mobs to gain xp from become limited to purple bosses.

[acridiel]

Especially if the only mobs to gain xp from become limited to purple bosses.

Yeah, cool.
Bosses that no-one else would be able to kill anymore then, because they were "grind-fodder" for those whoīd want to be 1337 all the time.
Not to speak of the "fight for killing rights" over those bosses, between the grinders that would like to squeeze the last few, meager XP from them.
Wonderful idea really. -.-

CU
Acridiel

[ajsuk]

I have the solution:

Scrap the idea & work on something else. :p

[velogfx]

I have the solution:

Scrap the idea & work on something else. :p

no! Just do it right! :P

[sidusar]

Exactly! Do it right! Raising the level cap = ur doing it wrong :p

[kalindra]

We want new skill branches, new skills to spend our overload of points on... not more levels of the old skills... New craft patterns, new abilities that make you LOOK kickass without necessarly being abusively overpowered.

you know 50 more levels in 63 branches multiplied by 10 SP each... too much SP and not enough points to spend them on.

[pre156kt]

In other words, let me finally craft furniture and useless shinies for my apartment/guildhall. I am tired of sleeping on this bloody brick of a bed that Zoraï supply their apts with. >.<

[jwenting]

In other words, let me finally craft furniture and useless shinies for my apartment/guildhall. I am tired of sleeping on this bloody brick of a bed that Zoraï supply their apts with. >.<

Move to Fairhaven, we have very comfortable hammocks.

[thlau]

Yeah, cool.
Bosses that no-one else would be able to kill anymore then, because they were "grind-fodder" for those whoīd want to be 1337 all the time.
Not to speak of the "fight for killing rights" over those bosses, between the grinders that would like to squeeze the last few, meager XP from them.
Wonderful idea really. -.-

CU
Acridiel
That is really funny, in my humble opinion that is already the case. So you think that 1337 boss farmers fighting with the 1337 xp grinders over kill rights of bosses is a bad thing?
Yes in my opinion it is a wonderful idea.

[kalindra]

I smell irony... :rolleyes:

[danolt]

I have no objection to raising the level cap at all, I think one of the major strengths of the design of the game is the brick XP system. This allows for advancement without unbalancing the character classes. All that being said, I do think it is important to have reset points on occasion. I also think that was part of the original design of the game.

I think the original plan called for a time in the game when your character would have to be "retired" or live in a "Saga free" stagnant world (very similar to the last few years here). I think the plan for new worlds meant exactly that, new worlds, new characters, and a big 0 in the XP column for the descendant of the original Atys character. Now a descendant would get some bonuses that a brand new player would not get. The bonuses would not be so great that it would give to great an advantage over new players who must now be competitive with players years older. It would be imperative that a new player could/would contribute to the new story lines at about the same level as the existing player base.

All of this of course was tied into the ability to create new zones at low, low cost by using the R2 system. It was an amazing fantasy of mine to think that a few interns at minimum wage could crank out zones faster then I could get around to fully exploring them.

If the game is to ever going to be competitive in the marketplace, I think the ring and the ability to increase or add skills without unbalance amongst the player-base is the answer. The first thing I would use to test to see if my ring developed zones were game-worthy would be 300 level zones.

[ishark]

Please no increase in the level cap. And I really mean NO INCREASE.
The game is already too much of a grind, raising the level cap would only force new players to grind more to be able to participate in groups/events without being bystanders or almost-useless healers.

[jwenting]

It's only a grind if you make it one. I don't, and I therefore see a higher level cap as a way I can longer use a skill I like before no party wants me any more because its use would nerf them.

[meryan]

Please no increase in the level cap. And I really mean NO INCREASE.
The game is already too much of a grind, raising the level cap would only force new players to grind more to be able to participate in groups/events without being bystanders or almost-useless healers.

*scratches head and wonders where I have been spending most of the last 3 years*

Only have one master (Desert Dig) and if I log on for even 10 minutes I usually get a tell asking if I want to heal (Heal = 170) in a group.... then there are usually others that would not mind having my AWESOME lvl 131 nuking abilities around (probably so that I don't nerf their equally awesome lvl 131 pike etc).... but to say that homims are only usefull at lvl 250 is just wrong.

[petersk]

*scratches head and wonders where I have been spending most of the last 3 years*

Only have one master (Desert Dig) and if I log on for even 10 minutes I usually get a tell asking if I want to heal (Heal = 170) in a group.... then there are usually others that would not mind having my AWESOME lvl 131 nuking abilities around (probably so that I don't nerf their equally awesome lvl 131 pike etc).... but to say that homims are only usefull at lvl 250 is just wrong.

*agrees*

I wonder where the hardcore grinders would be without the "almost useless healers".... Calling for a rez most likely, or sitting and waiting to regen between soloing plants.

I don't think raising the level cap would be such a good idea without new skils/spells/melee abilities/forage abilities. More of the same is not a good thing. Sure, a level 7 or 8 electric spell would be nice, but is it really needed? I think not. What is needed, imo, is a deeper skill tree that allows the player to add personal touches to things (like apartments, armor, weapons, amps..) beyond the notes you can add to crafted items. Or, even better, a new zone(s) with new creatures, materials, tribes, fauna, so it will truly be a place no one has ever been to before and would allow new and old players to explore together, not just a well memorized trek that has been done dozens or hundreds of times to gather tp's.

How about a new part to the craft tree that allows crafters to combine raw materials to get new colors and stats : fiber to fiber, oil to oil, leathers to leathers, etc.? That system already exists to some extent (color dominance and stat nerfs/boosts to crafted items), why not just enhance and expand it?

Just a few thoughts....

[jwenting]

Or some skill/process that allows you to refine raw materials into others.
Say you can dig nita nodes and something else, and with special tools and skills turn it into patee nodes of the same grade.

[iceaxe68]

Any new, or any merely changed thing, will be used in a variety of ways by different people.

The "gotta catch 'em all" set will race willy-nilly to collect everything new trying to be "first".

The grindaholics will experiment and discover the most efficient way to do everything new in the least time.

The handful of immersionists and RPers will casually spend the next 6 years slowly enjoying the nuances and lore of the new.

Sasi will log in and chat while not actually digging.

And most people will still make a trial account, play a day or two on Silan, discover that it's hard, and leave.

[ishark]

It's only a grind if you make it one. I don't, and I therefore see a higher level cap as a way I can longer use a skill I like before no party wants me any more because its use would nerf them.

Hmmm if grind is not the point why the importance on "nerfing"?
BTW it's not just a matter of making it one: if you have friends at lvl250, unless you can craft q250 (or near) your skills are useless, and if you can't dig q250 you can't help them get the mats for the crafts. Maybe it's me, but I find weird that a MMO which presents itself as "sandbox" requires so much time to reach access to all skills/stanzas/possibilites.

And most people will still make a trial account, play a day or two on Silan, discover that it's hard, and leave.

Can you tell me what you find "hard" in ryzom (or maybe we have a different meaning for hard)? The only activity which I find to be hard is solo-trekking.... all others are either "max all possible stanzas" or "don't bother maxxing because it's irrelevant".

[jwenting]

Hmmm if grind is not the point why the importance on "nerfing"?
BTW it's not just a matter of making it one: if you have friends at lvl250, unless you can craft q250 (or near) your skills are useless, and if you can't dig q250 you can't help them get the mats for the crafts. Maybe it's me, but I find weird that a MMO which presents itself as "sandbox" requires so much time to reach access to all skills/stanzas/possibilites.

Yes, I know I'm useless for not having mastered all crafts and terrains yet, no need to rub it in, others do that all the time.


Can you tell me what you find "hard" in ryzom (or maybe we have a different meaning for hard)? The only activity which I find to be hard is solo-trekking.... all others are either "max all possible stanzas" or "don't bother maxxing because it's irrelevant".

There were complaints earlier that Ryzom is too easy and should be made a lot harder so people level more slowly.
Complaints of course by old timers who've long since levelled all they're interested in and now don't want others to do the same thing.

[acridiel]

Yes, I know I'm useless for not having mastered all crafts and terrains yet, no need to rub it in, others do that all the time.



There were complaints earlier that Ryzom is too easy and should be made a lot harder so people level more slowly.
Complaints of course by old timers who've long since levelled all they're interested in and now don't want others to do the same thing.

Fascinating.
In the first quote Iīm able to see a bit of sarcasm and I agree with it.
Itīs not OK to "rub it in" and I resent this practice. Nobody is useless because of a few levels lower than you.
Some idiots just donīt learn that.
But not everyone is like that.

But the second is simply rubbish.
Because, interestingly enough, even non multimax players were complaining about it being too "easy".
And additionally I find you statement quite insulting to all older players.
This weird attitude of "old players are all @$$holes, out to keep their undeserved place." irates me to no end.

Weīre extremely fortunate that Ryzoms community is at a polar opposite of many other typical MMO-communities out there, where many of the cliché attitudes arenīt existent.
Only that of the envious, depressive, Newbe it seems.

If you took the time to truly get to know the community, instead of insulting it at every turn, you might be amazed at what you find.

CU
Acridiel

[dmarxs]

...Complaints of course by old timers who've long since levelled all they're interested in and now don't want others to do the same thing.

I think you will find the complaints from old timers has more to do with new people being fed cats all the time to a point where they feel they can't level without them, power their way to 250 and yet don't know how to play.
I've spoken to a few players who have played under a year have more masters than me yet have scant knowledge of the game. For example super sneaking skills seems to be a dying art.

Not all newer players for sure. But some who view leveling with cats and only cats as being the norm.

[ishark]

Hmmm I'm not sure I understand completely your exchange up there, but I'll keep out of it.

Still, I'd like an answer to my questions. I'll state it more clearly, if it's needed:

- I have a friend who can use q250 equipment and I'm a jewelcrafter, (q160 max) and digger (q190 lakes max). How can I help my friend with my skills?

- apart from solo-trekking (which I do in dig gear, since I'm out digging, usually, also my combat skills are much lower than the areas I'm in, so no point in using combat gear) what other activity is mainly based on player-skill?

Not all newer players for sure. But some who view leveling with cats and only cats as being the norm.

The first (ok, maybe second) thing I was told when I arrived here is that level is irrelevant, you can be q250 and still suck at the game, so I don't understand why people link "level" with "knowing how to play". Or, to put it differently, why leveling with cats is a problem? If someone wants to learn how the game works, cats or no cats he'll learn, if he doesn't he won't.

[acridiel]

Thing is, and I admit that it is a real problem, we do have an abundance of multi lvl 250 players, which in a way defeats what the system was originally intended for.
I.E. making it possible for players that have one or two skills higher than others, to level with those who do not have that.
Or in other words, for me to form a team with folks who would use lower level skills, at the same time using my own low level skills. (Iīm glad I still have those, but over time I will "loose" them too.)
Assuring a higher survivability, as a high-level could normally somehow safe the day in a pinch, and assuring equal XP for all in the team.
Which isnīt really possible anymore. Due to lack of new players.

This "overhang" of high level players now sadly leaves a void where this should be possible.
As only very few new players keep coming to the game, that logically are to small in level to make teaming up useful. :(
And are too far between to effectively team up amongst themselves. :(

Saying that we, as old players, are too arrogant to team up with newbes is simply wrong in most cases. Many of us canīt anymore. It doesnīt work.

Thatīs the downside of an otherwise cool system.
It worked when there was a relatively steady influx of newbes, back then.
But today, well... it has crippled itself.

Some do love to level fast and some do love to level "slow".
Thatīs just the way it is. The Catalyzers have augmented this behavior even more and made it a true problem in my eyes.
For, as it is sadly known, many players that do like to level and grind, only "mash the buttons" and donīt bother to learn how to really "use the system".
The Stanza system creates so many possibilities, of which only 10% are used by players. For they are perceived as "useless" or "not efficient" enough.
If people would bother to try certain things themselves, instead of just asking for "the best way to level", it would certainly be otherwise.
Such as it is, many folks just burn through the levels, reach 250 and declare everyone else "useless", because THEY are not able to level with anyone of a lower level anymore.
Sad :(

Healers are in a particular clinch here. Once theyīve reached 250 they are accused of "nerfing the XP" in a Team and arenīt asked to team up anymore.
Because to many of the newly arrived people levels are all that matters.
And that, to me, is a very, very sad thing.

Anyway, to each his/her own.

CU
Acridiel

[dmarxs]

... The first (ok, maybe second) thing I was told when I arrived here is that level is irrelevant, you can be q250 and still suck at the game, so I don't understand why people link "level" with "knowing how to play". Or, to put it differently, why leveling with cats is a problem? If someone wants to learn how the game works, cats or no cats he'll learn, if he doesn't he won't.

Level to a large degree is irrelevant. It may come as a suprise that I have no masters at all, some very close yes, but no 250. Yet I've killed every boss, solo treked every corner of Atys and much more, I know almost every node in PR and times, have a note book full of recipes for gear. I even managed to get my name in 2nd place in fighting for the Tryker Karavan temple. Since returning what I'm finding is this. Some players who are used to other MMOs, have a mind set that you must be top level, that the leveling inbetween is somehow an inconvenience to get out of the way. I'm of the view an excess of cats just reinforces that mind set. Distracting them from a wider view of the game, rather than sitting in one spot with a packer full of cats charging to 250.

It's nothing to do with wanting to slow players up and making them 'suffer' as much as the old timers, more that the old times know that like speed reading a book to the end, you have missed some important details.

Back on the subject of rasing the cap, I have no problem with it, if it comes with a sizable PvE patch, new things to dig or craft maybe, something new. Rasing the cap just to raise the cap seems pointless.

[ajsuk]

This "overhang" of high level players now sadly leaves a void where this should be possible. Aye, which just strengthens the argument for more skill trees over widening the void even further me thinks... :rolleyes:

[acridiel]

Aye, which just strengthens the argument for more skill trees over widening the void even further me thinks... :rolleyes:

Agreed ;)
*and hell now has frozen over* :p

And I absolutely agree with Dmarxs too.

CU
Acridiel
(who has no 250 too)

[ishark]

First of all, thanks for your answers.

Some comments (which may be very well on the edge of OT).

- it's my personal opinion that life and death of a MMO depend on the ability of players to play together as much as possible. As a consequence, a game system which allows too much "stratification" in distant/incompatible level ranges ends up being suicidal. I think that it's no surprise that the most played MMO out there has worked to eliminate these barriers as much as possible (at times too much, and with a huge cost in content becoming obsolete).
As much as I liked the level system here when I arrived, I'm starting to see the dark side of it: one the one site it enforces a split among players, preventing grouping unless some "rules" are met. This means at times that people must move away from their main area of expertise just for sake of grouping with friends. Maybe it's not completely bad, but it's not good either.
On the other side, with the central role played by crafting, a new player feels useless. I've heard many times that it's false, but let me tell you that reaching q100 jewelcrafting only to see someone in universe giving away for free q170 jewels REALLY makes you wonder why you bother raising the skill. In particular, when level-raising is a completely uninteresting activity (click a button). Thats when I stopped leveling JC the 1st time.
Another side-effect which I'm starting to see is that since everyone has access to all skills, there's a flattening of characters. Paradoxycally, this is the opposite of what the multi-branched level system was supposed to do. But in reality, the consequence is that all healers heal the same, all mages have the same spells, all diggers have the same stanzas. There's no choice or tradeoff or compromise.
Because to many of the newly arrived people levels are all that matters.
Maybe it's because they see them as a barrier to joining the rest of the community. It may be true or false, but if to a new player it feels like this, it'll either see levels as an obstacle and try to "get rid of them" ASAP or just leave.
Distracting them from a wider view of the game, rather than sitting in one spot with a packer full of cats charging to 250.
What is the "wider view of the game"? Of the things you mention, three (trekking, knowing nodes, recipes) are solo activities, boss killing I've been involved in twice. In both cases it was tank'n'spank, and I just spammed my highest heal from start to end (and I won't mention that it was healing for 1/10 of the other player's, not something to make me feel useful).

The Stanza system creates so many possibilities, of which only 10% are used by players. For they are perceived as "useless" or "not efficient" enough.
Well, maybe because they are? :) I'm not very much familiar with combat, but I found depressing that:
- until dig 150, for digging you just max everything and are done with it. I'm now around 185, and "optimizing" my actions is still very easy (ok, I AM one of those min-maxers, I have data and graphs on the efficiency of digging stanza combinations). While sources have a "mode" which changes, in the end all sources are equal, and the same actions will apply across all terrains/qualities/classes.
- I healed a bit in two-man parties: this does not require much in term of "stanza work", even the standard heal actions you buy do the job fine. When I was invited in a bigger party I showed up with a nice action bar, with a varied combination of heal power/costs and different cast speeds, to be able to face different situations in the best way. As the group killed stuff, I quickly realized how useless this is and ended up editing my actions on-the-fly to narrow them to: double max heal/max heal (using the q100 dual spell stanza), dual max heal hp/max heal sap, dual max heal hp/max heal stamina, single max heal bomb. All lower level stanzas are useless, credits are irrelevant, as in a group healers will be healing each other, so efficient use of one's HP and Sap is not important.

Now, I understand that the game system is not everything, that community, social activities, people, useless decorative items are all factors which add to a game. But all this elements are also present elsewhere, so it's not like Ryzom can count on them to keep players.

Hmmm I think I already asked this, but what would be your reaction to a UI button "set your level to...." which allows you to set your level to whatever you want (up or down at will) in any branch at any time?

[dmarxs]

On the other side, with the central role played by crafting, a new player feels useless. I've heard many times that it's false, but let me tell you that reaching q100 jewelcrafting only to see someone in universe giving away for free q170 jewels REALLY makes you wonder why you bother raising the skill. In particular, when level-raising is a completely uninteresting activity (click a button). Thats when I stopped leveling JC the 1st time.

There's a degree of truth here. It could be many reasons, but I feel the lack of economy and that some skills start out too hard, then get way too easy. Mainly, digging. I've always been of the view it's too slow at first then is just too easy. I can dig so much so fast that the what I'm digging has no value. I can fill up a room in short order, I know someone in my old guild that had over 4 guild halls on alts for space for mats. The digging, crafting which is basiclly the grounding of the economy has always needed to be reviewed.


Another side-effect which I'm starting to see is that since everyone has access to all skills, there's a flattening of characters. Paradoxycally, this is the opposite of what the multi-branched level system was supposed to do. But in reality, the consequence is that all healers heal the same, all mages have the same spells, all diggers have the same stanzas.

Healing and magic can get a bit samey certainly, but all using the same digging stanzas? No, step digging, kill digging and many others that people use.


What is the "wider view of the game"? Of the things you mention, three (trekking, knowing nodes, recipes) are solo activities, boss killing I've been involved in twice. In both cases it was tank'n'spank, and I just spammed my highest heal from start to end (and I won't mention that it was healing for 1/10 of the other player's, not something to make me feel useful).

Maybe my view on what is the wider game is a little different, from others. I'll try explain.
Few weeks ago I'm digging in Loira. A Kirosta starts eating an Arma. I messaged a Homin digging who was really near that they needed to move. They said no it's far enoguh away, and normaly it would be, but what they failed to realise is that between that Kirosta and them were a bunch of gittery Wombais who were in range.
After that kirosta was finished I knew because of the way the Kirosta shuffled sideways slightly the wombais would be next. The Wombais would scatter and the only direction was right towards the digger, Kirosta on spotting the Homin would forget about the Wombais as Homin is far tastier. And that's what happened. maybe it's just me, but this kind of thing for me is a wider view.

Good sneaking needs this wider view. Some mobs have different ranges. Looking at the way the mobs are in front of your path and knowing that Vorax is going to attack that poor lumper in a second and fear it right into your empty path.

[ishark]

Healing and magic can get a bit samey certainly, but all using the same digging stanzas? No, step digging, kill digging and many others that people use.
In the forums there's very little information about this. Another player sent me some information at the start (which was useless, two-step is not needed before 150 unless you're trying weird stuff). When I reached q150 I just reinvented the wheel and measured all the various numbers needed to optimize the actions. Maybe at higher q some more math is needed, but up to 190 the simple approach I've found with a single CP pause between step 1 and 2 gives me the maximum throughput (which has been oscillating around 0.2 mats/second depdending on q and the counterpart I had). I don't use deliberate source kills because it makes me lose a ton of exp for (basically) nothing.

BTW a thread on the subject would be very welcome, but I've been surprised at how reserved people are when it comes to digging and (even more) recipes.

I'll try explain. Few weeks ago I'm digging in Loira. A Kirosta starts eating an Arma. I messaged a Homin digging who was really near that they needed to move. [.....]
Well, I agree with this. This is basically why I said that the most skill-based activity I've found up to now is trekking. You need to look around and learn how animals behave. It's also a field where you can really "feel" when you're getting better, as you'll be able to zip through places which in the past were "impossible" with no trouble. With the changes in aggro positioning with seasons, it's also always different.

Hmmm it seems like you overlooked my last question? :P

[jwenting]

BTW a thread on the subject would be very welcome, but I've been surprised at how reserved people are when it comes to digging and (even more) recipes.

Yes, many people see it as herecy to share any skill or recipe tips with others, certainly outside their guilds.

As is, I hardly bother with step digging at the moment. I have a fulltime careplanner, making it unnecesarry as pretty much every node runs dry before I run out of either focus, time, or more usually both.


Well, I agree with this. This is basically why I said that the most skill-based activity I've found up to now is trekking. You need to look around and learn how animals behave. It's also a field where you can really "feel" when you're getting better, as you'll be able to zip through places which in the past were "impossible" with no trouble. With the changes in aggro positioning with seasons, it's also always different.


That's however not how many people trek. They recruit a master mage and melee or two and blast through everything along the way.

That's the way they like to play, and IMO noone has the right to tell them it's wrong.
Just as they don't have the right to tell us it's wrong to do things the way we prefer it.

[acridiel]

BTW a thread on the subject would be very welcome, but I've been surprised at how reserved people are when it comes to digging and (even more) recipes.




In no way surprised here.
Why give anyone for free, what has taken you month if not years to find out?
Thatīs not how the world works. *shrug*


And even while Iīm absolutely no person who likes to to puzzle over recipes, Iīm trying to do my best finding them out by myself.
Because I donīt like to be spoon-fed either.
So I have to swallow the bitter pill and keep puzzling.
Because I want to be proud, to have done it by myself!

Wish anyone would do that.
And Iīm damn glad no-one has yet gotten to the stupid idea of making the best recipes public. (At least as far as I know.)
Yes, I think that would be extremely stupid. So, sue me.

CU
Acridiel

[gcaldani]

Many interesting points.

I still think that the game doesn't need more levels and, at first instance, neither new skill trees, now.

I still think that we need first a better 'core' game and after we can think for more:

Specifically:

Mechanics:
1. Fix the stanzas so people are not encouraged to use just the average actions, but need to do better the higher they raise. What Acridiel said some post ago: people tend to use the easy way as most as possible and it's not encouraged to experiment new and personalized actions. Actually the most diversification is done by gear and not by actions (that could have been intended, due the heavy crafting orientation of the game, but, over time, even the hard recipes will be found first or later, so this cannot be a permanent solution).

2. I welcomed the fix in the afflictions, but the condition was, once fixed, to find a solution to make them more useful, and not only in specific situations, and most important, without using bugs. I know devs and players were arguing a lot on this point and I hope a solution will come soon(tm).

World design:
1. Make the huge world meaningful and not just some region. Having Void the only crowded region and the rest almost empty is not because of the low population but it's caused by a bad game design. With more population we would just have Void more crowded (as it was in the past) and still many regions, even some nice place as HH or HS, almost empty, or just traversed by occasional treks.

2. There are still a lot of places (that i have always ticketed but dunno now were my tickets really finished) where the animals go stuck in a very small place, unable to move. Years passed and not a single of this places are fixed.

3. Why there is not a single tribe that use mounts? Why an enemy tribe group patrolling an area doesn't attack me, if I have a bad reputation with them? I could understand when the group is just some harvesters, but a group of warriors? This would also add some interesting behavior around some Outpost, during PvP. People would know who are there and would add another reason to work to have better fame with them.

Economy:
1. Is it really so hard to add upkeeps for apartments, Guild halls and, most important, Outposts (with a much higher cost to declare, less to defend to avoid cheating trying to make a guild bankrupt over-declaring).
- Benefits:
Currency would have finally some meaning;
Solo-guilds would be hard to maintain (almost impossible without some agreements between guilds);
Fake declarations would magically disappear because of the high costs
Multiple declarations will be done only when really an Alliance want a war
Everyone will think more and better to make an OP war, for casual PvPers we still have Umbra opened for them (and the tag as well);

2. Add trading routes. This is not new. Look at EVE. Well, almost every software company is just cloning MMOs nowadays, I think copying something well done from another MMo would not be a big issue.
3. many others have said a similar idea, I have a very old post here where i spoke about wooden cars (a la far west) and the need to move materials between towns (my original idea involved moveing mats from OP to GH, adding OP in the PR and new, heavy, special mats). There can be many good reasons: move mats from OP to GH instead of having them automatically in GH, move mats from one point to another because of a trade between people, move mats because of different place a people organize to craft, etc...
For this, the devs should add specific points, similar to the ring terminal, where an NPC offer the expedition service, with different cars in relation to the amount of mats they have to move. To avoid having a full wooded car for each player in game (the world would be unmanageable), just pack different expeditions and send cars at scheduled intervals, with fixed departures and, almost fixed arrivals (being italian, i could not guarantee for the time arrivals :p). I'm sure, the more i write the more things appear in my mind and sure this happens to all the players so masochistic to still reading this.

MORE sand in the box:
1. Containers, jewelry boxes, containers at specific places (similar to the above cars idea), where tribes can even offer better services, where fame would have more reasons to. All this with some cost to have the economy still working. I go to the Green Seeds (in example, could be the Renegades in the desert) and ask for a storage: if i have enough fame i can speak and the storage would costs considering my actual fame. It wiould just be a click on a scenery object and a new window to store things into.
Devs can put some limit on the max agreements a player can have, to avoid the need to buy Oracle to manage all the data :p
It's sure that something like this would means more 'real' storage to have in the dataserver, so this need some good calculation before thinking to implement.
2. more animations and some passive action such as screaming at a herd while digging to see the herbs scattering around worried. Very easy to do: just trigger the same behaviour the herbs have when a carnivore approach, to a special emote, accessible from the right click menu (generic, even with no target, enabled only if standing still doing nothing). If no herbs are around, the player just screamed for nothing. Or, add a stanza for that (a power stanza) earnable thru a new rite.
3. ability to invite people into apartments and guild halls (when not in guild).
4. furnitures? Well, maybe i'm asking too much :p But, looking at all the mission mats scattered around, i'm pretty sure the furniture are already implemented since the beginning, just waiting some polish and a final decision.
The ability to customize apartments and Guild halls, thru furnitures, being craftable or just obtainable thru some missioning, would be really nice.

Last thing: maybe a new skill tree would be nice to have soon(tm): social clothing.

I could continue, but the post is already too big. Many people have sent a lot of good ideas over the years, we just need the devs having the courage to really implement some of them. Need to risk a bit if you want Ryzom stopping to have 'potential' since 5 years, and actually offer what it promised: a true, sandbox, living world.

Sorry if i wrote a wall of text just to say what Jayce said in one row of text: raising the skill cap is a bad idea.

[dmarxs]

*doublepost*

[dmarxs]

Last thing: maybe a new skill tree would be nice to have soon(tm): social clothing.

LA Hats *nod*

[jwenting]

Currency would have finally some meaning;
which while it may sound nice would be a very bad thing. Every mmo where the currency has a meaning and is hard to get in the amount needed becomes a magnet for gold farmers and gold sellers, hackers and account thieves.

[ishark]

which while it may sound nice would be a very bad thing. Every mmo where the currency has a meaning and is hard to get in the amount needed becomes a magnet for gold farmers and gold sellers, hackers and account thieves.
Considering the current population, it's definitely not a risk, since it would not be worth the investment.

Going back a bit in the thread:

In no way surprised here.
Why give anyone for free, what has taken you month if not years to find out?
Thatīs not how the world works. *shrug*
On the one side you say that Ryzom has a great community, but then healers at 250 gets put apart because they nerf the XP, higher levels treat the lower levels as if they were useless, and when it comes to crafting it's "every homin for itself". Great community indeed.

Now, I can understand that you want to keep hidden your secrets (well, actually, no, I can't understand, but that's me), maybe I was not clear: what I find surprising is that there is no discussion on the MECHANICS. Recipes I can find myself, thank you, but why there's no shared pool of collected data, no modeling, no discussion, nothing at all. It looks like everyone is sitting in his cave (ok, maybe the guild's cave) collecting data, writing down numbers, trying to understand how it works in his little corner, hiding whatever he finds for "fear" that someone may learn it.
And all this is for a +1% in some stats, which will make absolutely no difference in the end and is dwarfed by a lucky proc with an OP-mat tool. Go figure.

[jwenting]

As to "every homin for himself", I don't hold to that. I'm certainly no master crafter (heck, I only got my first master last week, and that's master lake forager) but I'll craft for anyone who can use what I can make.
You might have to bring me mats as I don't have inexhaustible stocks of course, especially if you want something specific.
I also try to share what little I know, to the great shagrin of those who consider every bit of knowledge to be top secret (to the exclusion of recipes given to me in trust of course).

As to discussing the mechanics, the only real tip I've ever gotten for finding amp recipes is to get 3 packers full of assorted amp mats (10 or so of everything that can be used in them in any grade) and start experimenting in precraft.
Hardly possible for people without a big guild of multiple masters who can get you any hunted or dig mat on Atys of course (especially mats from 270 pr bosses, which never are up when you need them).

There was a thread a while ago about just that, sharing information for crafting.
The poster was quickly shouted down, accused of herecy almost for wanting to share "secret information".

[ishark]

As to "every homin for himself", I don't hold to that. I'm certainly no master crafter (heck, I only got my first master last week, and that's master lake forager) but I'll craft for anyone who can use what I can make.
You might have to bring me mats as I don't have inexhaustible stocks of course, especially if you want something specific.
I also try to share what little I know, to the great shagrin of those who consider every bit of knowledge to be top secret (to the exclusion of recipes given to me in trust of course).
It seems that for a lot of people the first part is fine, but (as you write at the end of your post), the sharing of information is heresy.
What they may be missing is that sharing equipment, but keeping information hidden sounds very very much like "old-timers wanting to keep new players down". Again, I'm not really talking about specific recipes, but information like the fact that the crafing "adjustment" is related to stat average and deviation, something which is relatively easy to observe, but I only found in writing once, deep in a thread, and "grayed out" as if it was some incredible spoiler. I compare this with what happens on the other game I play, where all the theorycrafting and information is very quickly posted and discussed.

There was a thread a while ago about just that, sharing information for crafting.
The poster was quickly shouted down, accused of herecy almost for wanting to share "secret information".
Yes, I remember seeing that one.

[acridiel]

On the one side you say that Ryzom has a great community, but then healers at 250 gets put apart because they nerf the XP, higher levels treat the lower levels as if they were useless, and when it comes to crafting it's "every homin for itself". Great community indeed.

Now, I can understand that you want to keep hidden your secrets (well, actually, no, I can't understand, but that's me), maybe I was not clear: what I find surprising is that there is no discussion on the MECHANICS. Recipes I can find myself, thank you, but why there's no shared pool of collected data, no modeling, no discussion, nothing at all. It looks like everyone is sitting in his cave (ok, maybe the guild's cave) collecting data, writing down numbers, trying to understand how it works in his little corner, hiding whatever he finds for "fear" that someone may learn it.
And all this is for a +1% in some stats, which will make absolutely no difference in the end and is dwarfed by a lucky proc with an OP-mat tool. Go figure.

*text deleted for being written in a too emotional state*

So Ishark you accuse us of being to blame, that your style of play does not sit well with ours?

Great way to get friendly with a community that has grown over years.

Thing is: Over the years, a certain set of "social rules" have developed around here.
Great crafters are afforded a certain amount of respect. And diggers that know their way around the most dangerous spots also.
I can in a way understand that this might seem strange to a newcommer, used to the "grab it all, free for all" attitude of most other games out there.
But as was said in history: "When in Rome, do as the romans do."

I donīt expect you to like it, but I at least expect you to use your head, instead of spewing out insults at those that worked for the respect they rightfully gained.
Theyīve got mine.

Publishing all those recipes and other "secrets" , would lead only to social degradation. As seen in WoW and countless other games, who have this sickness called "spoiling".

CU
Acridiel

[gcaldani]

Ishark, personally i hate anything that spoils a game, in general.
Crafting is the most important factor in ryzom and, spoiling the recipes, would have moved the game in a very bad state.
One of my old mottos was: Pay to play, don't pay to replay.

For sure i would never give away a difficult recipe, that took me a lot of time to research, for free. That's part of the game. Play the game and find your recipes by yourself. If you like being a crafter, you should like the experimentations involved. No veteran around can stop you doing this part of the game, so why u don't wanna play it?

I don't think what you said about the healers is really true. They are put apart? Maybe that happens with people you play with. I never seen that with my friends.

I have never refused a level 245+ healer because of the nerf and never seen this done by people i know. Everyone at 245+ will nerf anyway, regardless of the skill. Instead I have seen many times celestial guardians helping players out of team, included myself.

[ishark]

So Ishark you accuse us of being to blame, that your style of play does not sit well with ours?

In case you didn't notice, the three points I mentioned are taken from posts in this thread, and NOT POSTS OF MINE.

Publishing all those recipes and other "secrets" , would lead only to social degradation. As seen in WoW and countless other games, who have this sickness called "spoiling".

Why you (and gcaldani) keep repeating "publishing those recipes" when I very clearly indicated that what I find surprising is the complete lack of discussion of the MECHANICS?

As for "social degradation", I don't understand why that would result from sharing knowledge. BTW I logged in in early january to say happy new year, only to find a discussion in universe which was 100x worse than all the crap I've seen in WoW in 1.5 years (it's not by chance that I've cancelled my auto-renewal of the account, which will expire next month).

For sure i would never give away a difficult recipe, that took me a lot of time to research, for free. That's part of the game. Play the game and find your recipes by yourself. If you like being a crafter, you should like the experimentations involved. No veteran around can stop you doing this part of the game, so why u don't wanna play it?

I do, but if I want to play a solo game there are many others around.

(side note: discussion over)

[sidusar]

Now, I can understand that you want to keep hidden your secrets (well, actually, no, I can't understand, but that's me), maybe I was not clear: what I find surprising is that there is no discussion on the MECHANICS. Recipes I can find myself, thank you, but why there's no shared pool of collected data, no modeling, no discussion, nothing at all. It looks like everyone is sitting in his cave (ok, maybe the guild's cave) collecting data, writing down numbers, trying to understand how it works in his little corner, hiding whatever he finds for "fear" that someone may learn it.
And all this is for a +1% in some stats, which will make absolutely no difference in the end and is dwarfed by a lucky proc with an OP-mat tool. Go figure.
Indeed, completely ridiculous, isn't it? I doubt many could argue that it is.

And the fact that it's so ridiculous doesn't make you consider that, perhaps, that's not how it is? That perhaps most of these people do refrain from discussing the mechanics because they're afraid they'll spoil the game for others, rather than because they're afraid to lose their meaningless +1% advantage?

Most people I've known who knew the crafting mechanics inside out and chose not to publish their knowledge were not multi-master crafters, and ingame they didn't really benefit from their knowledge at all.

Most people who I've heard argue most strongly against the public discussion of crafting mechanics weren't multi-master crafters either, but rather budding crafters who wanted to figure all that out for themselves.

In fact, the multi-master crafters, who should be the ones to benefit the most from keeping their crafting knowledge secret, seem to generally be the ones most willing to share it.

Most people hiding their numbers in their caves are more than willing to share it with other players, they just don't want it publicised open for everyone to see. So they only share it with people whom they trust won't publicise it for all to see either. Not to keep their recipees; they don't give a damn about their +1% advantage. But they remember how appealing the mystery of the crafting system was to them before they figured it out, and how much fun they had figuring things out, and how boring it became when they had it all figured out. They want to preserve that experience for others who don't want things spoiled.

Imagine someone you hardly know asking you "hey, could you spoil me the ending for [new movie]? I'm not really interesting in seeing it anyways, I just want to know the ending so I can spoil it to as many people who haven't seen it yet as possible!" That is how we feel when someone who's just been playing for a few months demands we tell them everything we know about the crafting system.

[Mokoi]

Lets keep it on topic folks

[iceaxe68]

Can you tell me what you find "hard" in ryzom (or maybe we have a different meaning for hard)? The only activity which I find to be hard is solo-trekking.... all others are either "max all possible stanzas" or "don't bother maxxing because it's irrelevant".

First of all, I beg your pardon for the delayed response. I've been away from the forums for a few days.

Personally, Ryzom is the measuring stick by which I judge other games, as it was my first MMO, and the one I still play after having abandoned all the others I've tried. To me it is neither hard nor easy, it just is what it is.

However, I have attempted a few times to recruit people I've met elsewhere to try out Ryzom. Almost invariably, they describe it as "too hard" in comparison to their own experience in other games. In many games, it's almost impossible to get killed until you are finished with the "beginner area" and move on. (I certainly found that to be true in the last Other Game I tried - that one with winged characters...)

I've tried to explain that Ryzom is not designed to be a hand-holding game where nothing too challenging can get to you while you are a beginner, but rather a deep and immersive experience which is worth the effort to learn. But none of those recruits is still around, alas.

So that's what I meant. I personally think Ryzom is the proverbial "just right" in difficulty. At least for me.

Back on topic:
I'm not very concerned about raising or not raising the level cap, so long as whatever changes come about keep the game fun.

[eldrannandor]

I think more skills to learn would be a better approach than raising the cap.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Specifically, I think the addition of advanced skills is what they should do.

The lore already includes references to advanced stages of development.

"By following the pathways of Enlightenment, the faithful take the steps that lead to other dimensions. The homin who demonstrates sufficient merit reincarnates into another world as a Kami, until he is capable of attaining the supreme blissful state of Kami-Ko. At that stage, he enters into Kaminhood for all of eternity."

They could create a new advanced kami and karavan skill tree. Once players have high enough standing and have maxed the prerequisite skill then they could complete a rite and be given access to the advanced trainer.

The advanced skills could be more powerful than the regular ones, but also level more slowly.

This way they wouldn't necessarily need to create q250+ content and no-one would have to feel like their skills had all suddently been "unmaxed" by a skill cap lift.

Example skills.

If you've maxed elemental magic + a melee or range skill, advanced skills could open for each of the magic damage types that allow weapons (advanced weapons created using advanced crafting skills) to do both physical and magic damage, with a requisite sap cost as well as stamina for each swing/shot. Those effects could only be applied to weapons you've maxed the base skill for, though.

A melee skill + healing could open a vampiric drain effect skill for melee weapons instead of magic damage.

As for magic...

If you've maxed ele, it could open up subschools for each of the magic damage types that offer spells that do more damage (and look flashier!).

If you've mastered both affliction schools, it could open a new line of stronger affliction spells.

If you've maxed healing, it could open subschools for each of the healing types (i.e. health, sap and stamina). These could allow eg. spells for hp, sap or stamina regen auras (which aren't on timers), weak remote healing spells (i.e. no range limit), heal over time spells, stat buff spells or auras etc. etc.

[sidusar]

I'd be opposed against any skills that require levelling another skill to 250 first before they open up. However, I'd agree wholeheartedly with skills that require, for example, a certain amount of fame to open up. I'd also welcome specific stanzas that require having two skills at a certain level before they can be bought. (Though don't focus entirely on magic there, we'd need combination stanzas for two melee trees as well.)

I think the important thing we agree on however, is that more skill trees is a much preferable way to keep us grinding than higher skill caps. And sure, make these new skill trees require 10 times as much XP as the current ones if you want to keep us grinding a long time.

Also note, the current skills trees... well, the melee and ranged ones all use the same stanzas, only the weapon is different. So opening more trees is as simple as taking an existing weapon, throwing the stats around in a novel way, and calling it a new weapon. The forage trees all use the same stanzas, just in different terrains, so introducing a new tree is as simple as introducing a new terrain. The craft trees all use the same stanzas, just in different patterns, so introducing new trees is as simple as new patterns (for the new weapons, for example, or a 1h amp).

And the current magic trees... DA has 3 spells of which 1 is hardly used, OA has 5 spells of which 2 are hardly used, elemental has really just 1 spell that comes in 7 damage types, and healing really has just the healing spell in 3 energy types. So introducing a new magic tree really doesn't have to require many new spells. :p

Yes, some of you might see introducing new skilltrees like that as a cop-out, but wouldn't it still be less of a cop-out than just giving us 50 more levels of the same skills and stanzas? :rolleyes:

[setstyle]

Yes, some of you might see introducing new skilltrees like that as a cop-out, but wouldn't it still be less of a cop-out than just giving us 50 more levels of the same skills and stanzas? :rolleyes:

...Which don't even have to be combat-based, but rather provide ways to increase the depth of our gaming experience: music, furniture, social clothing... and 50 other things already brought up here.

[eldrannandor]

I'd be opposed against any skills that require levelling another skill to 250 first before they open up.

In this context I think it's necessary.

Their goal with raising the skill cap is to push "end-game" back a bit. They are specifically trying to add things to do for more established players.

If you open new, more powerful skill trees that don't have skill pre-requisites, no-one's going to waste their time using/levelling the weaker ones. Many of the existing skills and all of the effort put into raising them would become obsolete overnight. They may as well just opt for a complete skill-wipe.


Also note, the current skills trees... well, the melee and ranged ones all use the same stanzas, only the weapon is different. So opening more trees is as simple as taking an existing weapon, throwing the stats around in a novel way, and calling it a new weapon. The forage trees all use the same stanzas, just in different terrains, so introducing a new tree is as simple as introducing a new terrain. The craft trees all use the same stanzas, just in different patterns, so introducing new trees is as simple as new patterns (for the new weapons, for example, or a 1h amp).

And the current magic trees... DA has 3 spells of which 1 is hardly used, OA has 5 spells of which 2 are hardly used, elemental has really just 1 spell that comes in 7 damage types, and healing really has just the healing spell in 3 energy types. So introducing a new magic tree really doesn't have to require many new spells. :p

Yes, some of you might see introducing new skilltrees like that as a cop-out, but wouldn't it still be less of a cop-out than just giving us 50 more levels of the same skills and stanzas? :rolleyes:

No - adding a new skill that is the same as the old skill but harder to level is effectively identical to raising the existing skill cap.

I think to keep things interesting they really need new combat abilities that give us different options for combat.

Eg. even though it's not a huge difference, having new skills with combined physical + magic damage would add another (thin) layer of complexity to the game. You have to think about the mob's physical and magical resistances and tailor your weapon choice and weapon magic buff accordingly.

Similarly rather than just adding more powerful healing spells, creating a new skill line that buffs statistics, physical defence (1 for each type), magic defence (1 for each type), or something like that, would add variety for healer type players. Eg. if the buffs were maintained (i.e. you can only sustain one) you'd have to decide whether to buff the tank's defence, the nuker's damage and switch around as circumstances change. Not that they often do in pve - but it would keep healers awake in pvp.

Elemetnal magic is trickier but advanced spells could eg. require attunement. Players might need to attune themselves to that particular damage type to cast the advanced spells. Attunement would lock them into that damage type (for advanced spells) but they could still cast all of the regular ele spells. Again a relatively minor change for pve, but it would spice things up for pvp. If you find your target is resistant to your attuned damage type, do you re-attune (which takes time), hit them with weaker regular ele spells, switch targets or maybe ask an advanced affliction caster to debuff their resistance to that damage type?

[kalindra]

End Game ? You mean the content I started playing even BEFORE earning my first master ? I don't think there is such a thing as "End game" in Ryzom. There is higher level content, sure, but you are NOT obligated to have any maxed skill to participate in it and be helpful. Mastery only means you are more efficient at it.

Ryzom has a lot of "grind" already (although it doesn't feel like a grind to me, it does discourage some of the newer players). Making the gap between newer and older players bigger or forcing them to be lvl 250 to access some content isn't the way to go.

Ryzom doesn't start at level 250... it just RESTARTS at level 1, 20, 50, 100 or 150 in another skill branch...

We don't need more "grind" of the same stuff... we just need something new and different to do... someone was talking about ew mechanics earlier in the thread... THAT would be an interesting "content" to see. More levels of the same old skills ≠ new content.

[dmarxs]

Ryzom doesn't start at level 250... it just RESTARTS at level 1, 20, 50, 100 or 150 in another skill branch...

We don't need more "grind" of the same stuff... we just need something new and different to do... someone was talking about ew mechanics earlier in the thread... THAT would be an interesting "content" to see. More levels of the same old skills ≠ new content.

I agree with Sherkalyn on this. It's one of the reasons I've never seen a reason to rush any skills to 250 and I guess I was lucky to play with people who did not care what level I was.

A hope of new content is why I returned. Not just stretching out the skill trees. As said, something different, new. One of old arguments people always used to say is that it's a sandbox, we don't need new and different things. Well sorry to say my old bucket and spade are worn-out, I need new ones.

If the skill trees are to be made bigger it HAS to come with content that justifies it.