Community, what community?

[rushin]

It's amazing how much hate, mistrust, arrogance and greed has wormed its way into our community since outposts were introduced.

It's pathetic, we should all be ashamed of ourselves. I remember a time when the kamist and karavan players had respect for each other. Where i would stand side by side with doubletap and we would endeavour to fight off the kitin. Wander with Spriteh in KoD and have discussions about Zorai masks.. what the hell has happened to everyone?

like every single other thread on the forum this will get flamed to hell, full of bile. It used to be the case that in game people were more reasonable even when things flared up here. Hard to say thats still true isnt it?

Does anyone who was here before the outposts think things are better now? can look around them and honestly say our world is a better place? Just because they are in game it doesn’t mean everyone has to behave like a spoilt teenage boy. Anyone who comes into the game now see's what the atmosphere is like and of course they will fit in with that, won’t be long before our community is indistinguishable from WoW's. that what everyone wants?

[sehracii]

If I am critical of the TS donation to the Community OP, it is because I believe it hurts everyone. Especially the Kami alliance. The intentions may have been good, but the effects won't be.

There is no greed, hate, or mistrust involved.

[final60]

It was a good idea to donate the OP! Dont be suprised if a couple more OPs go the same route! It assures fair distribution of an OPs produce for all OPless guilds! Almost as good as removing XP Cats !:)

[katriell]

Although I appreciate the RP value of outposts and the fun of actual PvP within their battles, I must agree with Rushin on this.

I cannot believe that there is anything inherently wrong and harmful about "charity." What's next, claims that giving free stuff to new players is bad too? Actually, I should make that question rhetorical, because someone will surely answer "yes" and mean it...and that will be disappointing.

[ajsuk]

Dont be suprised if a couple more OPs go the same route!

It wouldn't surprise me at all unfortunatly. I hope the remaining OP holding guilds stay on the more honorable track instead of using this "safeguarding" exploit.

[final60]

There is little choice at the moment! Its a choice between having nothing and having a little of what one had before.

*The Kamis would be more then happy to go and forcibly take OPs. Of course! But that isnt an option.

[ajsuk]

I cannot believe that there is anything inherently wrong and harmful about "charity." What's next, claims that giving free stuff to new players is bad too?

The mats and crafted goods for them more than likely come from a non-combat related source. OP produce is designed to be earned via PvP.

[ajsuk]

*The Kamis would be more then happy to go and forcibly take OPs. Of course! But that isnt an option.

So get off your backsides and make it one. :rolleyes:

[final60]

Get off my backside? Your an ignorant fool to think that Kamis are just lazy and would rather sit around hugging trees then fight for what they believe in! I'd put it to you we've had to work harder then any Karas in the past year!

[katriell]

The mats and crafted goods for them more than likely come from a non-combat related source. OP produce is designed to be earned via PvP.
So the earner does not earn the right to redistribute the produce? Sounds like a Microsoft software license. :rolleyes:

[ajsuk]

I'd put it to you we've had to work harder then any Karas in the past year!

I don't doubt it, shame the work hasn't been channeled in the right direction. That is: away from moaning and in to organization.

[ajsuk]

So the earner does not earn the right to redistribute the produce? Sounds like a Microsoft software license. :rolleyes:

Answer me this, how do you earn produce from an outpost which isn't to be attacked because it's a "charity" ?
You fought to reach the THR once?

[final60]

Well how about a challenge 20 of your best pvpers, against 20 off mine! We'll see who is the better organised!

*This is my point! Most of the Karas know there is a strong likely hood that with the numbers being the same, the Kamis may just be better organised! So you come on here and in the face of hard facts , will deny what is happening. Just becomes you want to ensure your dominance, its pure selfishness! and im glad I chose Kami , the Kamis got beaten to a pulp, but they gained dignity and compasion! The karas seem to compensate that with material wealth!

[ajsuk]

Well how about a challenge 20 of your best pvpers, against 20 off mine! We'll see who is the better organised!

Hey final, guess what? It's not GvG and its not number limited. =)

[birathen]

*sits back and watches the thread derail itself completely, crash into a wall and catch fire*

To summarize the op discussions so far.
Kamist yell: Waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaaah!
meanwhile on the other side of the hedge the
Karavans yell: Waaaah, waaaah, waaaaaaah!

Who yells the loudest? Only the future can tell..

[riveit]

Well how about a challenge 20 of your best pvpers, against 20 off mine! We'll see who is the better organised!

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'll see if I can arrange an event. :)

[threbus]

*sits back and watches the thread derail itself completely, crash into a wall and catch fire*

To summarize the op discussions so far.
Kamist yell: Waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaaah!
meanwhile on the other side of the hedge the
Karavans yell: Waaaah, waaaah, waaaaaaah!

Who yells the loudest? Only the future can tell..
Oh my god it's propaganda! There is one more "a" in the yelling of the kamists! (Joking ofcourse ;))

[andypur1]

*sits back and watches the thread derail itself completely, crash into a wall and catch fire*

To summarize the op discussions so far.
Kamist yell: Waaaaah, waaaaah, waaaaaah!
meanwhile on the other side of the hedge the
Karavans yell: Waaaah, waaaah, waaaaaaah!

Who yells the loudest? Only the future can tell..

:D That is the reason that I try not to get involved in these forum flame fests any more. Of course, it is only a few homins making a lot of noise here and life on Atys will go on much as before.

[andypur1]

Oh my god it's propaganda! There is one more "a" in the yelling of the kamists! (Joking ofcourse ;))

Bah and I purposely didn't mention it :p

[ajsuk]

Bah and I purposely didn't mention it :p
Funny, same here.

[ashling]

Kinda ironic that a post asking are we all really happy about how the community is going turns into the same old same old arguements between the PvPer factions.

[mrshad]

So the earner does not earn the right to redistribute the produce?

With a community OP, there is no earner.

The OP is supposed to be considered out of play, so there is no risk.

There is no one responsible for its defense should it come under attack.

No one has to organize and maintaining an alliance of guilds to be prepared for an attack.

There will be no early morning attacks designed simply to pester and annoy.

There will be no posting and cross posting to battle times and meeting points.

The only effort that goes into earning the mats from a community OP is an uncontested 5 round fight against low-level NPCs, and the task of distributing the goods.

The only way it can be really 'earned' by the community, is if the community stands up and defends it against a serious attack.

I simply don't think that will happen. If a community OP comes under attack, I think the most effort that will go into defending it will be here on the forums.

I hope I am wrong about that.

[dakhound]

hate breeds hate etc etc, both sides have been guilty rushin

I have alot of kami friends who know where I'm really coming from and it sometimes surprises me the level of aggression I get (I dont exactly cut a nice figure either). I believe the months of accusation, counter accusations, pvp threads etc have increased the gulf between the 2 factions and that bridges cannot be built.

I must admit I enjoy conflict in a rather perverse way though and often find myself encouraging it. Nothing quite like a bit of feeling fuelled fighting what gets my heart pumping

[ashling]

hate breeds hate etc etc, both sides have been guilty rushin

I have alot of kami friends who know where I'm really coming from and it sometimes surprises me the level of aggression I get (I dont exactly cut a nice figure either). I believe the months of accusation, counter accusations, pvp threads etc have increased the gulf between the 2 factions and that bridges cannot be built.

That part I'd agree with. Actual hate seems to have set in on both sides.

[kyesmith]

we can argue untill we go blue (pun really not intended) the fact of the matter is the karavan have gone about OPs a completly different way to the kamis, kami's arnt doing so well for many reasons, we dont want to be told what to do by a few "leaders" within the kami (the way i think it should be) we dont spam recruit everyone who comes into FH, zora, ykr and pyr thats our own choice, ive spoken alot to kami's about this, the karavan have a massive support from lower lvl players, not alot to be said about it. At the end of the day we have gone about ops completly differently, we never looked at it as something to "win" never have we wanted to own all the OPs, just wanting to give our newer players the best possible start in ryzom.
cats and op mats dont intrest me in the slightist, ive got nearly everything i want to lvl 250 and done so 99% of the time without cats, i help organise attacks and take part to give kami's a leg up
I have no issue with the karavan for doing what they have done, which is do their best to win, i have a problem with arogence and gloating. In game i do my best to be a pain in the butt to the karavan, im kami what do you expect people take this totally the wrong the way, on a daily basis i get abusive tells, ive been killed by agro dragging, had 2 packers in void killed by this, im not going to name names or go moan to the CSR i just put them on ignore and get on with it. Both sides are guilty of alot of things but i can honestly say the once famous "ryzom community" has gone down hill alot. I find myself playing ryzom cos i like a select few people and enjoy the grind, not so long ago i could say sooo much more i loved about ryzom :(

Got alot to talk about next pod cost under forum action this time Beau :D

[ajsuk]

That part I'd agree with. Actualy hate seems to have set in on both sides.

Personally I feel I'm quite capable of getting on with people from both sides, I know I used to and I still do with a few though unfortunatly the list is getting ever shorter.

What I can't stand is people whining for change/"balance"/exploits simply becaues they can't be bothered to put the effort in to playing the game as designed.

OPs are PvP content, be prepared to PvP for their produce or don't particiapte and go without. Otherwise they might as well just increase the sodding xp accross the board, save any effort at all.

It's up to the Devs now imo. Time to remove the third button on outposts.
If OP owner = Kami & your fact = Kara - Attack possible
If OP owner = Kami & your fact = Kami - Attack impossible
If OP owner = Kara and your fact = Kami - Attack possible
If OP owner = Kara and your fact = Kara - Attack impossible

If Neutral - Go take a running jump...

Oh, and add a trade option.
(again, something I suggested long ago)

[ashling]

Edited to remove the question to Jayce. It wasn't anything bad but it's getting into a discussion of outpost implementation which is a bit off topic for this thread.

[forever]

Well how about a challenge 20 of your best pvpers, against 20 off mine! We'll see who is the better organised!
This leaves Homins out of the fun and makes them feel bad if they where not picked.

Also how will you keep others from running in and helping if they don't know whats going on.

[ashling]

This leaves Homins out of the fun and makes them feel bad if they where not picked.

I don't think that was meant as a mechanism for outpost battles this time and was just a challenge to a fight.

[ajsuk]

I don't see how removing a persons option to disagree with other people in their faction helps any. That seems more along the line of further breaking the community down along faction lines as enemies and making the game as black and white as possible.

Whats there to disagree about? The factions are at war.
The situation shouldn't of been able to get like this, we need an official statement on it and it to be dealt with quickly to avoid further disapointment in the faction system (or lack of) for newcomers, nevermind those from long ago.

[ashling]

Whats there to disagree about? The factions are at war.
The situation shouldn't of been able to get like this, we need an official statement on it and it to be dealt with quickly to avoid further disapointment in the faction system (or lack of) for newcomers, nevermind those from long ago.

I disagree but lets leave it Jayce, your opinion won't change, my opinion won't change, it's all been argued before and it's all off topic for this thread.

[ajsuk]

I disagree but lets leave it Jayce, your opinion won't change, my opinion won't change, it's all been argued before and it's all off topic for this thread.
Sounds good. =)

[rushin]

unbelievable.

this thread wasnt about the flaming TS get for giving up our OP, it was a general comment about the community and the game.

well thanks so much for showing everyone so quickly how the aris community is, cant even be bothered to disagree with me, just shout and scream...

[frakel]

To comment on the original post.

I entered Ryzom some months (I believe) after the introduction of outposts. In the game I have not yet been involved with the dealings or battles regarding outposts - not because of a conscious choice to avoid it - there has simply been so many other interesting things to spend my game time on. Perhabs Ill join into that part of the game at a later time...
Thus my only impression on the community spirit regarding outposts are experiences here on the forums. And standing here on the side of things I must agree that the general tone do seem to have become less nice as time has progressed. Competition, conflict and battles are great things in a game - but to some extent they do seem to spill over into the community. And that is sad.

EDIT: There are exception to the rule off course. Ive seen some nice threads with people on either side thanking each other for a nice fight. Thats great - but probably the exception, right?. Its just that the whole subject of outposts have become such a sore spot. Im even worried what responses Ill get for writing a post such as this... ;)

[fiach]

In answer to the original post, I dont "play" anymore, just do OP's and hang out in Atys, because its a beautiful place.

I was here on release day and I've seen a beautiful community degenerate into a wow-forum-alike that we all used to poke fun at and thank god we wern't like.

Just puts me off playing as wholeheartedly as I once did.

[pyrrhon]

I agree with you (Rushin) that this community has become full of hate, mistrust, and arrogance. I disagree with you that the community is becoming indistinguishabe from WoW. WoW's community does not have nearly the level of animosity, bitterness, anger, or other bad feelings.

In other games, WoW for example, the world is stable. There are NO long term consequences to PvP. A person's faction is predetermined and permanent, based on race. So there is no bitterness when a horde player kills you, because it was expected from the beginning, and there is only a momentary loss. You spawn and get on with the game.

Here, Nevrax promised a game where players' actions would have a real effect on the world. Surprisingly, Nevrax delivered on this promise. I don't think the result is what Nevrax would have hoped for, but such is the risk they took in actually making a world where player actions made a difference. We made an amazing difference! We sent Nevrax into bankruptcy! Huzzah!

But seriously, I think being defeated again and again hurts the Kami players' psychology more than in other games. Worse, some of the kami start to believe the Kara line about how if the kami only tried harder, they could match the karavan, etc. This a vicious psychological weapon that is quite common in the U.S. at least. You see parents in the U.S. using it often, telling their kids that if they only tried harder, they could be top of their class, best football player, millionare, etc. But alas, the kid is just no good. It can be quite damaging to a person's psyche.

Anyway, I see the OPs as the root reason for the failure of this game and the destruction of what once was a fairly friendly online community. Ryzom would have made for a fantastic three year psychological study though.

p.s. for any player that is feeling real psychological stress from Ryzom, get out, the air here is toxic.

[bobjones]

Even if the Ryzom community degenerated into the worst possible state, it would still be better than WoW.

Postings on this forum are not an accurate reflection of the community as a whole.

[rushin]

i want to be clear, before i take a swift exit from this horrible forum for a while that all these negative things exist on both sides of the fence, maybe even on the fence as well :p

i just wish everyone could take a step back and see what we are becoming and try and do something positive about it before its too late.

[danolt]

As a person, the one sitting behind the character, I fully believe that every player is hoping to make Atys a better place. Everyone has a vision of how they want the world to be and are working towards it. There are obviously many different visions and the game is designed to make them clash.

What I do not accept is that other players, guilds or alliances actions can harm that vision. I only need to look at the Juggernaut that was created by the continual haranguing the KA endures. Opposition helps define and sharpen. Conflict is story, it is plot.

Those who preach peace are preaching death, they are handing out goo-aid. With no conflict, there is no story, no plot, no dilemmas, no resolutions, it is just a pointless grind.

[tydamus]

Greetings,

Just a friendly reminder before this thread goes into oblivion, to please watch your tones, your words, and your intent. I don't want to lock another thread.

Best regards,

[portios]

Those who preach peace are preaching death, they are handing out goo-aid. With no conflict, there is no story, no plot, no dilemmas, no resolutions, it is just a pointless grind.

This is one of the best posts i've read so far.

[ssefeaba]

There are far worse communities existing in other MMO's compared to Ryzom. And we are a LONG ways away from becoming anything that even remotely resembles WoW's community.

Of course, I'm not saying Ryzom doesn't have problems, but really...lighten up, it could be worse :)

[vguerin]

Rushin, OOC & IC you're a respected player by me and DT... What's gone on in the forums has been bad for all. Folks that admit to not take part in the politics of OP wars (and not even on Aristople) chime in, some take it personally, etc etc.

"I" for one rarely (Ok, I have bit the nasty worm in the tequila bottle at times) get "upset" at things... IC I follow Jena (though the game really failed us on factions), though typically OOC I am a voice of reason while also wanting to expose enemy weaknesses.

Above all else, those of us that have the original box... some of us mousepads, hats and video cards (damn joo Kaetemi) feel there is still more for us in SoR (sadly the Saga is gone)...

For a couple years now I have asked the same thing... GF now has to answer or we'll never know...


Where's the beef ?

<edit> I WANT to WANT to play SoR more, some of my favorite game friends play here. Sadly our great vision of the game is stagnant and nothing I want to do is left. Short of a crafting respec only OP battles interest me... Where is Jena ? What can be gained by playing daily ? Where is the damned beef ??? </edit>

[raven41]

Some people just need to take a step back, There are still many good people in Ryzom, But I have noticed a big change overall since I joined (About a month and a half before EP2)... I used to go out and team with Random people all the time, even had to talk diggers out of diggng to team up heh, But anymore, I team with only my close friends, If I even hunt...

But there really is alot of great people left, We just need to not lose sight of them...

Oh and, Its not about "Oh well its not as bad as WoW"(Or w/e game) Its the fact it 'is' getting worse...

[roseh]

Whats there to disagree about? The factions are at war.
The situation shouldn't of been able to get like this, we need an official statement on it and it to be dealt with quickly to avoid further disapointment in the faction system (or lack of) for newcomers, nevermind those from long ago.


At least something I can agree with. What do you think newcommers see when they get into the game now? The touted community I heard so much before joining is mostly gone (luckily still somewhat alive on the Kami side). The boards, especially the general boards where any new or potential player will go first is full of hateful posts and flames to totally innocent suggestions or questions that were not meant to cause anything but make some people think and agree/disagree with the poster with no hate needed. And also a very unbalanced server with Kara owning all the OPs and Kamis just doing what they always do...

Oh, and for those people who keep screaming "Kami alliance"... News flash, Kami alliance does not exist. There is a forum with that name that houses some communication and idea sharing for the kami, and can be called a loose alliance, but it is certainly not the militaristic alliance like what KA is. Just so those who do not know get the facts straight and don't get confused.

pyrrhon, thank you for the psych assessment, but I don't actually care about the OPs that much, if anything, the fact that the KA want the OPs so much I decided to let them keep them, let them enjoy the fruits of their labours, and I will just enjoy a peaceful PvE game with no PvP elements in it.


With no conflict, there is no story, no plot, no dilemmas, no resolutions, it is just a pointless grind.

Yes, conflict is the basis of any story, however if you ever took literature, the physical conflict is very rarely the main conflict of a story. It's very rarely about the winner or the war, even war novels are about the triumph of the human spirit or about an ideology. So please, don't talk like there are no ways to play this game without PvP, it's almost insulting.

[qurzo]

Oh, and for those people who keep screaming "Kami alliance"... News flash, Kami alliance does not exist. There is a forum with that name that houses some communication and idea sharing for the kami, and can be called a loose alliance, but it is certainly not the militaristic alliance like what KA is. Just so those who do not know get the facts straight and don't get confused.


*grin* Best definition of Kami Alliance I seen sofar :)

[iwojimmy]

I would like to point out, as has other people, that there are a few posters on the forums here who make a lot of noise.
these arent the voice of Ryzom.
Dont let them convince you otherwise.
It is depressing to read some of the recent posts, but remember the forums - like PvP - are only a facet of the game. Participate if you want to, but if you arent enjoying it do something different.

[sehracii]

Oh, and for those people who keep screaming "Kami alliance"... News flash, Kami alliance does not exist.


Then perhaps forming a concrete alliance would improve performance in Alliance vs Alliance game content?

[kyesmith]

First off sorry for the way this thread is going, i say i play for a small amount of people i get on with well i consider you a great friend (make sure u have your tittle on!)
Personally i see the community breaking down over outposts and factions, which there really is no point in getting into, no one side is at fault and theres not alot that can/will be done to change things. Underlying problems are the old jolt csr team aint around, lets face it if the forums where like this a few months ago half of us wud be banned from them.
What can we expect to change? Not alot really, i think new game content wont help, people who like ryzom will carry on playing i will anyway, i find myself not speaking to more and more karavan, which to be honest has left three on my contacts list and about 20 on my ignore list.

[qurzo]

Then perhaps forming a concrete alliance would improve performance in Alliance vs Alliance game content?

Prolly would from youre pov, but you can't force ppl into a AvA type war.
Maybe there are some kamist that would like to see a Kami Alliance ala KA, but there are also alot who don't want to be part of a "concrete" alliance and thats ok.
Why not split KA into 2 separate alliances and fight each other? :P There is enough conflict between Tryker and Matis world to give a AvA like that a meaning :)

[tigrus]

Without hate of certain players and the ability to be BETTER then others, competition stops, and the need to develop stops.

The kami alliance, is a forum. Simple as that, why? because they dont want to be lead, not by anyone. No matter who it is.

Everyone needs to learn this is a game, put on a gameface, and compete. But come on, the namecalling needs to stop.

[dakhound]

Oo wasnt aware the Ka had leaders too, unless you ofc count guildleaders?

sure some of us get shouty at op battles, but herding people into position needs to happen as everyone knows.

someone better tell me who the bosses are before I accidentally insult some of them and they ask for my head :P

[kyesmith]

Oo wasnt aware the Ka had leaders too, unless you ofc count guildleaders?

sure some of us get shouty at op battles, but herding people into position needs to happen as everyone knows.

someone better tell me who the bosses are before I accidentally insult some of them and they ask for my head :P

The kami all have their own choice if they wish to attend an attack against a certain guild, the karavan are far more supportive of any attack the alliance has, as for people shouting in battles thats normal, there needs to be battle leaders on both sides and the kami do okay in that resepct.
Im sure the KA hve certain people who are far more involved in organisation than others, maybe leaders is not the right word but they devote alot of their time to making it work.

[sprite]

"News Flash" - The term Karavan Alliance was invented by Kamists to describe a group of guilds who grouped together the night before OPs were implemented and agreed to defend each other. The community defines itself, get used to it ;)

As for the original post, I still fondly remember the first time I was shown the way to Darkmoor by a group of Zorai *sighs and pops on his rose-tinted specs*

[arfindel]

Without hate of certain players [...]competition stops, and the need to develop stops.


Sad point of view.
And to think this is only imported from parts of RL...



Hate is destructive and self destructive too, but I thought that's a basic truth, and we all know it. Conflict, competition is always there, as long as there will be humans playing games, and homins to share Atys, has nothing to do with hate.

[tigrus]

Sad point of view.
And to think this is only imported from parts of RL...



Hate is destructive and self destructive too, but I thought that's a basic truth, and we all know it. Conflict, competition is always there, as long as there will be humans playing games, and homins to share Atys, has nothing to do with hate.

Sad point of view? Maybe hate wasnt the best word.
But distaste might be better. The want to be better then someone else. THAT want, that feeling inside is a feeling worth stribing for. That feeling of standing as number 1 in a large sport competition, that feeling cant be beaten. Not with all the money in the world.

And those that have done it, knows exactly what I am talking about.

[qurzo]

Sad point of view? Maybe hate wasnt the best word.
But distaste might be better. The want to be better then someone else. THAT want, that feeling inside is a feeling worth stribing for. That feeling of standing as number 1 in a large sport competition, that feeling cant be beaten. Not with all the money in the world.

And those that have done it, knows exactly what I am talking about.


Ppl who been there also know that being nr 1 is also very relative.
In games like this you can't be better then someone else....ppl who play games like this to be better then someone else always end up frustrated.

[danolt]

Yes, conflict is the basis of any story, however if you ever took literature, the physical conflict is very rarely the main conflict of a story. It's very rarely about the winner or the war, even war novels are about the triumph of the human spirit or about an ideology. So please, don't talk like there are no ways to play this game without PvP, it's almost insulting.


I was not talking about PvP. No player starts off the game as Kami or Karavan they have to work their fame, then they have to go through a rite. You have to choose to become factioned. It is not easy, it is not something that can be done overnight. It is suppose to have meaning. Each faction has a world view, there is no middle ground and that is why the factions are at war. If you support the ideas of your faction you can not support the other, they are opposites. There is a war because the ideas are in conflict.

Roseh, you may say you are anti pvp in game, but you are certainly bringing the fight to the forums, in fact you are the one that dropped the napalm that started this latest tit for tat. So pardon me if I take your posts for what they are, an attack.

Once a player chooses a faction they have chosen to participate in the Saga. If you want out of the story (conflict), get out of the factions. I suspect that the vast majority of people screaming for peace have never spent more then 2 minutes looking at the lore. I suspect that those who think our characters can get along have no idea what the factions stand for. If you spent the time to raise your fame, perform an oath in game, it is reasonable that a player can assume that your character stands for a cause and is pursuing the objectives of the faction that was chosen. Unfortunately many factioned players have no idea what is written on the temple walls they have sworn allegiance to. I fully realize AA is an oddity for taking their Oaths seriously.

Every few months, someone comes along and wants everyone to stop being factioned, ignore their oaths, the history , their characters, the lore, game mechanics, etc..because all of those things are wrong, it is really all about sharing and happiness. They say if we all just get along nothing bad is ever going to happen again, there will be no more battles, there will be no more growth, no development, we will all live in consensus, and worship the trees. Which are amazingly similar to the goals of Ma-Duk.

Pero

[amitst]

Katriell how can you believe that there is anything inherently wrong or evil about charity?

By definition you are helping those that for some reason could not make it. Many of those reasons may be reasons that you should. Any interaction would be a form of judgement, or at least a form of judgement far more severe than no charity at all.

[mugendo]

They say if we all just get along nothing bad is ever going to happen again, there will be no more battles, there will be no more growth, no development, we will all live in consensus, and worship the trees. Which are amazingly similar to the goals of Ma-Duk.

Pero

I worship nobody.....those trees and I are just good friends :D

[kyesmith]

Katriell how can you believe that there is anything inherently wrong or evil about charity?

By definition you are helping those that for some reason could not make it. Many of those reasons may be reasons that you should. Any interaction would be a form of judgement, or at least a form of judgement far more severe than no charity at all.


your only gunna get back a responce like, its a game LOL! *looks at my sig* :rolleyes:

[philu]

Well done everyone for proving Rushin's point. :rolleyes:

It's threads like this that drive some of the better members of the community, like Rushin, away. I can think of far too many others that have left because of their disappointment of what the community has become. When will you people ever learn? :(


Above all else, those of us that have the original box... some of us mousepads, hats and video cards (damn joo Kaetemi) feel there is still more for us in SoR (sadly the Saga is gone)...

Though I only quoted this bit (because I agree with this bit most), I agree with all of DT's post (hey that was easier to say than I thought! ;) ). That was one of the few good posts in this thread, too many others let themselves down again.

Only other post I wanted to comment on was this:

The touted community I heard so much before joining is mostly gone (luckily still somewhat alive on the Kami side).

Because I don't agree with it. Sadly it's the Kami side that let themselves down most.*



*FYI I AM Kami or would be if I had any respect for the Kami and their followers left.

[arfindel]

[...]
Once a player chooses a faction they have chosen to participate in the Saga. If you want out of the story (conflict), get out of the factions. [...]Pero


Not following in detail your little verbal duel.
But isn't it a bit extreme to automatically consider people out of conflict out of the story? Cmon, I am faction, and I am in conflict, but there is both mechanically and lorewise possible to be out of conflict but not out of story.

Every drunkard in Thesos bar is part of the conflict? Every lil crafter selling stuff in Avendale is part of the conflict? Every newborn at Yrkan gates is part of the conflict?

You mean this story is made only by military people and some politicians? What they eat these soldiers? Who makes their clothes? Who has wooven even the tiny hammok in which mighty Pero rests his tired bones after some gory verbal wars? (hihi couldn't resist, sorry)

[portios]

Without hate of certain players and the ability to be BETTER then others, competition stops, and the need to develop stops.

The kami alliance, is a forum. Simple as that, why? because they dont want to be lead, not by anyone. No matter who it is.

Everyone needs to learn this is a game, put on a gameface, and compete. But come on, the namecalling needs to stop.


Very darn good post, change Hate for rivalry thou, hate usually hurts you more than your oponent.

[kyesmith]

Without hate of certain players and the ability to be BETTER then others, competition stops, and the need to develop stops.

Everyone needs to learn this is a game, put on a gameface, and compete. But come on, the namecalling needs to stop.


I dont class myself as a RPer, but over time my character has become more and more radical kami, i am horrible to most karavan cos thats how my toon would be if these events where real, ive taken it too far in the past, i had one or two rants at some OOTN players cos of the MoM attack.

I would not agro drag, i can count the amount of times ive got annoyed with players in one hand (no i dont have a deformed hand with 20 fingers). Resently i get far far more abusive tells then ever before, but then again i dont think many people unstand the way i play ryzom aww well i still have fun and thats what matters

[danolt]

Not following in detail your little verbal duel.
But isn't it a bit extreme to automatically consider people out of conflict out of the story? Cmon, I am faction, and I am in conflict, but there is both mechanically and lorewise possible to be out of conflict but not out of story.


The point I was trying to make is that if you join the faction you join the conflict, "when your a Jet your a Jet all the way..."

In pledging support to a higher power, the character is going to be put in situations that can no longer be controlled by the player. The character is now part of a faction and is affected by the deeds, goals, ideals, philosophies of the entire faction. They will share in the victories and defeats of the side that the character pledged a sacramental oath to support.

A non factioned player is certainly part of the saga, but they can step in and out of the fight, they are not held accountable for the choices of the factions and in turn have limited influence upon the main drivers of events. The nonfactioned individual is able to maintain a much greater sense of control, but has to work much harder to influence events and in some cases may not be able to influence them at all.

There is room for every type of play style on Atys. The problem is, to many people want to keep their hands in every pot and refuse to take their hands out when it is time to refill the cookie jar.

[xfluffee]

Then perhaps forming a concrete alliance would improve performance in Alliance vs Alliance game content?
Nah. The Kami are too independent, and aren't willing to be herded around. Not for cats, not for OPs, not for anything.

What does exist among the Kami is friendship, cooperation, trust, and respect. This is something cats, flowers, and OP mats can't buy. Even now, the Kami "community" is coming together better than I have seen in the few months that I've been here, after some of the more recent internal happenings. Before a week or two ago, I never would have written any of this about the Kami.

So, if the only reason to adopt a more rigid alliance structure is to win OPs, then no thanks. Other than the imbalance they offer to those who have the most, they don't really add anything useful to the game. The Kami, in general, understand that the game is to have "fun", and no one can define what "fun" means to anyone else.

Fun, enjoyment... it is its own reward.

[xfluffee]

The want to be better then someone else. THAT want, that feeling inside is a feeling worth stribing for. That feeling of standing as number 1 in a large sport competition, that feeling cant be beaten. Not with all the money in the world.
This sounds like more than the "friendly competition" that exists between good friends. So no, that's not worth striving for. There is always someone better, so you are ALWAYS going to wind up at the end of the long road smeared with unhappiness or failure.

Instead, what is worth striving for, is to be better tomorrow than you are today. You strive to improve yourself. But to go into further discussion might take us too deeply into discussions of ethics and morals which many seem to take offence at, so I guess we can agree to disagree. :)


And those that have done it, knows exactly what I am talking about.
I'm afraid I will have to continue to disagree. Age and experience have taught me differently. At the end of the day, if I have only concerned myself with beating someone else, I have only neglected the things about life that hold the most meaning. (Again, dodging the philosophical/ethical/moral debate)

There are many people for to your words ring out with absolute truth, there is no doubt there.
But there are many others to whom you are speaking an unknown language.

[roseh]

Roseh, you may say you are anti pvp in game, but you are certainly bringing the fight to the forums, in fact you are the one that dropped the napalm that started this latest tit for tat. So pardon me if I take your posts for what they are, an attack.


So basically anything a Kami says on these forums you take as an attack? I have not seen anything offensive in my posts and tried to keep them as level as possible. If you wish to consider it an attack, congradulations, you just proved the thread starter's point.


Every few months, someone comes along and wants everyone to stop being factioned, ignore their oaths, the history , their characters, the lore, game mechanics, etc..because all of those things are wrong, it is really all about sharing and happiness. They say if we all just get along nothing bad is ever going to happen again, there will be no more battles, there will be no more growth, no development, we will all live in consensus, and worship the trees. Which are amazingly similar to the goals of Ma-Duk.


There is a difference between healthy competition and flame wars and dirt flinging that is now seen BECAUSE of the OPs. Anything no matter how innocent done by Kami player is taken as an attack on the Karavan. I mean look at these two flame war posts. Who seems to flame more? It's not about winning the game, it's about having fun IN the game. If you honestly think that once you win the game, the Kami give up on PvP and the Karavan players dominate everything and new players don't stick around because they see a one sided battle and lots of whining from both sides of the fence, that this will be a fun game to play then you are sadly very much mistaken.

Following the lore and the game mechanics is one thing, but if the mechanics are ill suited to balance out the war (as they are supposed to do) and one side is hell bent on domination while the other wants to have fun in the game... Well... This game and the community are on a fast way into hell as I see it and soon it will be nothing but a PvP hell with griefing the only outlet for the PvPers when no OP wars are going on. And I think that's sad for such a great game and a once great community.

[xfluffee]

I was not talking about PvP. No player starts off the game as Kami or Karavan they have to work their fame, then they have to go through a rite. You have to choose to become factioned. It is not easy, it is not something that can be done overnight. It is suppose to have meaning. Each faction has a world view, there is no middle ground and that is why the factions are at war. If you support the ideas of your faction you can not support the other, they are opposites. There is a war because the ideas are in conflict.
I have seen games where this really is true according to the game lore and game mechanics. While the lore of Ryzom does point in this direction, it's not a completely fleshed-out idea. Especially not as far as the game mechanics are concerned. Maybe some NPCs will try to kill you. Whoop-dee. Some mindless creatures will try that too.

I enjoyed reading the lore before I joined. I thought I had found a really immersive game that was more than just kill an orc or troll, cut off some bandit leader's head (which always seems to grow back), and win a title "Hero of the Realm". I was disappointed to find that the lore is misleading of the true game mechanics in most areas, and outright contradicts it in others.

The current battles that exist contribute little or nothing to the story.

And even in the midst of all-out war, there are times of peace. It's crucial for mental and emotional well-being, if nothing else, so you can refresh yourself and recharge for the next battle. I'm reminded of the story my boss told me about the Americans and the Germans playing games (football?) together during Christmas time in WWII.

And even then, there are still some things in life that are more important than trying to kill your neighbor.

[mrshad]

...but if the mechanics are ill suited to balance out the war (as they are supposed to do)

PvP-for-land is never about balance between the sides. Not in this game, and not in any others.
It is, always has been, and (as far as I can forsee) always will be about the most powerful side taking over everything. It is the very nature of the game...it can not be changed. The mechanics are not supposed to balance that out...the mechanics define it. If the more powerful side can not carry the day, then the mechanics, by definition, are unbalanced.

We are fortunate on aris that the side that holds the upper hand, for the moment, is made up of really great players. Generous people that are pleasant to associate with. I fear what would happen should small-minded and vindictive people take over. Hopefully we won't have to find out.

[sprite]

I'm reminded of the story my boss told me about the Americans and the Germans playing games (football?) together during Christmas time in WWII.Wow a whole 7 pages before a WW2 reference, I'm impressed. For future reference, it was in WW1 (not 2) and it was the Brits and the Germans. The americans wouldn't join the fight until three years later. And yes, it was football ("soccer" as americans call it).

(Edit: Apparently, there was an american one in ww2 as well, but its nowhere near as well known)

PvP-for-land is never about balance between the sides. Not in this game, and not in any others.
It is, always has been, and (as far as I can forsee) always will be about the most powerful side taking over everything. It is the very nature of the game...it can not be changed. The mechanics are not supposed to balance that out...the mechanics define it. If the more powerful side can not carry the day, then the mechanics, by definition, are unbalanced.
QFE

[jennaelf]

It is interesting, the views that a non-factioned person finds, trying to push through all the mess of threads that are full of nothing but child-like bickering.

One person said the Kami do things different than the Karavan. Then the Kami shouldn't complain about imbalance, or the Karavan being a more aggressive force (except they've fronted fewer attacks in the past few months - my guild, neutral defenders, has caught a lot of grief for defending Kara so often, so I'm pretty aware of how often we've been defending Kara instead of Kami).

Community... When I came here, I was awed by the general respect to be found, even in the PvP community. Especially in the PvP community. I saw flagged factioners come through towns fighting... but neither side would touch an AFK individual. That's respect. Whether you are a roleplayer or not, pvper or not... Leaving a character/avatar alone when the player is AFK was one of the best displays of respect I had *ever, ever* seen in PvP... And watching my first few OP battles, there was remarkably little bad mouthing... I glowed with pride when I talked to friends who play other games, about how great the Community, even the PvP aspects!, were in Ryzom...

That's sinced been smashed all to Hades and back. I have seen members of both factions behave not quite as ... respectfully as I once perceived. ... running their mouths and spamming regions with "smack talk"... killing AFK people (I don't care what your personal feelings on this are - it doesn't make a good impression and makes you appear as something of mule related species)...

To me, it doesn't matter what faction a homin is in. Jeziellia deals with them equally, until/unless given a reason not to. The Kami may be all about friendship, etc... But for a LARGE vocal majority of them?? It seems they are only interested in it if you are part of their Alliance. That's no way to convince others to JOIN your Alliance, especially younger players. I know blanket statements are never true of everyone in a group - but those who think there's a good impression being made might want to step outside the box and observe a little bit. On both sides.

I've been confronted with rude statements, when showing up to help at an OP battle, such as "It's about time" - when I was early for a battle, but not there in time for the pre-battle. That's a great impression.

This was NOT what I had experienced of the community in my earlier months (I came to the ML in September 2006, still a 'newbie').

Rushin's right. I don't even have to be an old player to see the way things are different, now that I have seen further into the OP and Faction aspect of the game. The longer I stay in it, the uglier it gets.

I'm not whining, I'm not complaining. And even though our Outpost (House Etchmarc) donates to the community, we are NOT immune to being attacked. More than one guild has talked openly about doing it. So while 'hiding' behind the safety 'exploit' has been prodded... I'd just like to point out that at least one Alliance has "prodded" it as unfair for our guild to work on making Guild alliances to protect our outpost by allying with guilds from both Alliances.

As someone who has chosen - In Character - to be Neutral... a guild or homin's allegiance to a Faction means nothing to me. But apparently having friends on one side of that war... means that I'm as good as being part of that Faction. That, naturally, pushes any neutral oriented groups/individuals toward the opposing side, strengthening it. Doesn't make much sense to me.


Done rambling, and I apologize if I wandered too far offtopic.

J'player.

[zanthar]

Although I appreciate the RP value of outposts and the fun of actual PvP within their battles, I must agree with Rushin on this.

I cannot believe that there is anything inherently wrong and harmful about "charity." What's next, claims that giving free stuff to new players is bad too? Actually, I should make that question rhetorical, because someone will surely answer "yes" and mean it...and that will be disappointing.

Katriel, I do agree that charity is a good thing, but as with everything too much of something is a bad thing! With charity after a fashion it becomes a lazyness crutch to not go out and earn something you want, but instead just sit back with your hand out and expect to be given everything!

[ajsuk]

PvP-for-land is never about balance between the sides. Not in this game, and not in any others.
It is, always has been, and (as far as I can forsee) always will be about the most powerful side taking over everything. It is the very nature of the game...it can not be changed. The mechanics are not supposed to balance that out...the mechanics define it. If the more powerful side can not carry the day, then the mechanics, by definition, are unbalanced.
QFE again.

Why bother fighting a fight which can't be won? (ie: Your side it better but the other side gets handouts for their lesser efforts)
Balance = All sides having the same available options.
The Kami can do anything the Karavan can do mechanically in game and the Karavan can do anything the Kami can do mechanically in game.
Thus it is fair.

Katriel, I do agree that charity is a good thing, but as with everything too much of something is a bad thing! With charity after a fashion it becomes a lazyness crutch to not go out and earn something you want, but instead just sit back with your hand out and expect to be given everything!
QFE
Constant safe supply which was fought for once isn't earned at all.

I don't believe the game is or has ever been anywhere near as bad as the forums might suggest. It is unfortunate things get so heated on here at times but it is indeed infact more often than not, just because we are so passionate about the game. When ideas/alterations are suggested and people truely believe they will not aid the game or would even make it worse it is their duty to say so and argue against it.

[kay22626]

unbelievable.

this thread wasnt about the flaming TS get for giving up our OP, it was a general comment about the community and the game.

well thanks so much for showing everyone so quickly how the aris community is, cant even be bothered to disagree with me, just shout and scream...

I totally agree with you Rushin. Unfortunately a community is shaped by the environment and not the other way around. Community was great in Ryzom because there was no reason not to be, because the game environment allowed players to be relaxed and friendly. With the OPs came more competition and with competition comes discord. What really scares me is the fact they planning to implement changes to the game's "economy". Im dreading this will increase competition among players even more and will push the general attitude even more towards WoW which is almost a standard in todays MMO games.
Ryzom has been a haven for a while, a place where players had no reason to fight against each other and the result was the most wonderful community to ever grace a MMO. With changes planned to the games economy and with most new content being PvP related and aimed at increasing the competition between the two factions, Ryzom takes a step towards becoming "just another MMO", losing a lot of what made this game so unique.

[mithur]

Ryzom has been a haven for a while, a place where players had no reason to fight against each other and the result was the most wonderful community to ever grace a MMO. With changes planned to the games economy and with most new content being PvP related and aimed at increasing the competition between the two factions, Ryzom takes a step towards becoming "just another MMO", losing a lot of what made this game so unique.

There is no virtue at all in being friendly and charitable when none is at game.

Ryzom have to sides: the cooperative, when all of us hunt, heal, and share. And the competitive, when all of us figth for OPs.

The merit and virtue is, for me, in being able to do fair play in war, and be friendly in cooperative. That's what makes this community so good for me.

True is, that many people have lost the temper lately in the forums. It happens, by many reasons, every two or three months. But most of the players use to make fair play, and don't come here to flame nor yell.

So, if you wanna say that the part of this community who write in this forum have decay since the OP introduction, maybe you are rigth.

But if you go in Game, and say that the whole community have decay... I'll say you are wrong. Because in the game, the people still cooperate and fair play in war. In Game I still see a wonderful community, with more merit that if the OP never have existed, because they could have a reason to don't cooperate, but they are good people, and cooperate, be kind and good with independance of the war side.

[spursfc]

I don't believe the game is or has ever been anywhere near as bad as the forums might suggest.


Unfortunately you are so wrong. I have refrained from joining any of these (let's be friendly) "debates" but.....

I know many who used to play this game, I used to play this game, there are many still within the game who do not play like they used to. We all got sold in beta, we lived and breathed this wonderful game for so long, we lived and breathed with relatively little PvP. Without a doubt, increased PvP has ruined the game for those that fell in love with it, in the early days. We all fell in love with the "Saga".

Sure, I'll concede that many play now for the PvP content it has, but hand on heart there is not a player out there, who was there at the beginning, who survived the downtimes, patch 1 etc etc who will agree that the game is better, but I bet they will all agree it has got worse.

And therein is where the problem starts, because it is those people who built this game and I am damn proud to have been one of them. Those same people built the "community" but slowly but surely as one great player leaves, as one great guild leaves or dissolves the game sinks a little bit more.

It will never ever be the game it was or the game it could have been and that is hard to take for many, including me. I did something I never ever thought I would do, I actually unsubbed my accounts. I haven't played on Aris for at least 8 mths, on Cho for 4mths. I've logged in on occasions to try and get the buzz, the drive, the thrill of playing a game! A game that possessed my life for nearly 3 years but it hasn't worked and reluctantly I have to admit that it never will now.

Ironically, I don't blame anyone. Deep down, I believe Nevrax killed the game trying to make a profit but I can't blame them for that really. They were forced to try and make money. Their choices were bad ones and we all know what happened after that. Maybe GF will turn it around but I doubt it. I would love to be proved wrong and would re-sub at the drop of a hat. I live in hope..........

In the meantime, I salute all those who have stood by the game, who are still playing, who are still trying to make it the game we all wanted it to be. You know who you are and you will always command my greatest respect because it was YOU who made this game what it was.

And now I will stop rambling, its a goddam game, why do I feel the urge to cry like a baby.............................................. .

Snake (Aris) R.I.P - Pliskin (Aris) R.I.P
Clyde (Cho) R.I.P - Bonnie (Cho) R.I.P

[sprite]

Sure, I'll concede that many play now for the PvP content it has, but hand on heart there is not a player out there, who was there at the beginning, who survived the downtimes, patch 1 etc etc who will agree that the game is better, but I bet they will all agree it has got worse.
*Raises hand* I think the game itself is much better now than before "Patch 1".

[varelse]

The community that I experience and participate in every day when I log in, is still wonderful. Kami, Karavan, neutral or undecided alike, homins still help each other, chat, greet friends and make the game what it has been for me from day one - a second home ;)

I still have friends from both factions (and many neutrals also) and still team, share, trek, gossip and laugh with them as I always did. I regret that this is no longer true for some other players, but the reality is that the Ryzom community remains among the best I've ever been part of :)

[arfindel]

It is interesting, the views that a non-factioned person finds, trying to push through all the mess of threads that are full of nothing but child-like bickering.

One person said the Kami do things different than the Karavan. Then (My underline) the Kami shouldn't complain about imbalance, or the Karavan being a more aggressive force.

Sorry, but that "then" induces the idea there is a conclusion. If you eat rotten eggs then don't be worried to have a stomach problem.
Your "then" thought doesn't cover any logical conclusion.

Unless you can prove that "doing things differently" always leads to a disbalance.

People most often "do things differently" and this doesn't necessarily lead to a disbalance. Doing things differently leads to differences, that's all about it. All dicussion following can be framed as what differences and in which context.

So all the rest goes on a logically (intended or not) wrong premise.

But the premise itself, taken separatedly means:
kamis do things differently therefore(?) produce a disbalance
therefore we admit there is a disbalance
- with side note kamis are producers of the disbalance are forbidden to complain about it

Now I know you had problems with the radical part of the kami faction. I also know you had problems with the radical part of the kara faction as well.
Karas have most OPs therefore kamis will attack more often (game mechanics makes impossible to attack someone who has nothign to attack:), right?
Kamis attack more often, you - having defensive contracts with most guilds on both sides defend kara most often.
Therefore: kamis complain more, kara radicals are shushed more.
If the Kamis had more OPs was vice versa.

But there isn't any implication from here that you should use the rethorics of above just because kami radicals attacked you. At a deeper view, or simply consulting the history of neutrals after Ops implementation, the neutral life is the hardest on Atys, and for the radicals they will always be suspect. You know very well I am not a radical - more than that you know very well main kami guilds didn't support what you're calling "LARGE majority". The large majority ran to help you when Dragonblades guild split, excluding TS btw, because we want to know first the people whom we ally with, not blindly do treaties.

If you prefer kamis to be the creators of the disbalance, so be it, though. I could've just shut up, as I'm not interested to discuss a lot the community. It's obvious it's changed but overall have my good and respected friends, most of them, with me and i trust in self healing of communities. I thought though I should write this answer just in case you treated yours emotionally and were not aware of the of logics/rhetorics and ultimatedly meaning swing you've done.

[bf649ztp]

The game and community, is still cool for me, although I wasn't here at the very beginning. Some relationships ingame have been, lets say stretched, but generally people around have still got the manners, helpfullness, that has kept me here for so long. These forums have always sucked, and have been packed full of bickering, from the start. If not OP, faction arguments, then arguments about PR killing or boss kill stealing. I try to stay away from here as much as poss, hence my low post count and lack of sig. I'll play here until i'm bored and have levelled all I want to, but a few arguments between some noisy people wont make me upset enough to do anything drastic.

Kodel.

[jennaelf]

Faa, I don't think that I was meaning what you took my statement to say. :) Or maybe I said it in a way I didn't quite mean.

As I understood the original statement it was that the Kami were not as successful because they did not do things the same way as the Karavan (which, to me, implied that the Karavan were doing something 'more effective'). If it were the other way around, even given my personal experiences, I would still say...

Perhaps a better phrasing is:

"If you see a more effective way something is being done and choose not to use it, then you should not necessarily complain at its use or your lack of results." ?

And in a way - I do have trouble with someone 'creating a disbalance' and following up by complaining about the disbalance. It seems very unproductive (maybe even counter productive)?

"I refuse to rinse my dishes after washing them, like you do! ... I hate that my food always tastes like soap, but yours doesn't!" (typo'd the crap out of that the first time)

I would never say someone can't complain about things - but I don't like hearing complaints about choices that have been made willfully on the part of the one complaining (be that in Ryzom or in real life).

I may have just made it more confusing.


And I say "large majority" because it's the majority of those that make themselves seen. I freely admit that since I'm not in either Faction, I very likely see only a small part.

I have plenty of Kamist friends (I think, anyway), but I don't know if any of them are involved with the Alliance since I don't concern myself with that aspect if I can help it. You know I adore you, Faa. :) And TS has always been great. Very stalwart and very forward. I suppose my more recent experiences have been mostly on the bad side of things, though.

[killgore]

*Waves to Snake*. I think for our community to survive the elder members must try and teach new players our ways.-Kil

[iceaxe68]

As a pretty new face around here, I won't comment on any changes. How would I know?

I can say this, though. "Winning", being number 1, etc. feels really good, for the 30 seconds that it lasts. In the long run the quality of the time you spent, the amount you grew through the experience, the friends you made, and the things you learned are not only far more valuable, but indeed far more enjoyable.

Winning is over immediately. The others you carry with you for the rest of your life. And those things can be and should be just as true for 2nd place through last place as they are for the "victor".

Now, I do realize that the ability to really understand and believe the truth of my statements requires a certain amount of experience, and that for some of the players here that experience is only now being lived. You have my support as you find these things out for yourself, and I will not disrespect any of the steps along the path. I do ask, though, that you extend the same courtesy to others as they find their own way in their own time.

The community of Ryzom is exactly and only what we, the participants, make it. It will be what we choose or allow it to be. If you desire it to be more courteous, then be courteous. No matter what anyone else does. Actions, you will find, are far more effective than mere words.

Once upon a time I played a game which involved a fierce level of competitiveness. Physical pain and even bloodshed were normal occurrences, even expected and welcomed. I am not referring to virtual bloodshed here, but real live blood and the occasional broken bone or torn joint. Nonetheless, the firm tradition of the game held that after the mayhem ceased, the two opposing sides would join together in merrymaking and even mayhem of another sort. The outcome of the game had no bearing on the enjoyment of the post-game festivities, unless someone had truly stepped beyond the realm of fair play. That fact alone discouraged foul play to such an extent that I can only recall a single instance of such.

Perhaps some portion of that ethos can be brought to bear on this situation. Can we find a way to bring the sides together after battles in a non-competitive social or cooperative activity? It may be a bit of challenge to keep it within the realm of the Saga, but perhaps it may be done. Joint Kitin hunts? Neutral ground parties? I'm just brainstorming here, perhaps others have ideas.

I think that everyone, even the hardcore PvP crowd, would benefit from a more supportive and courteous atmosphere. Keeping IC and OOC properly separated would be a fine start.

I fear I may have rambled on a bit, but please forgive the vagaries of a wise old homin. Or at least old. :)

[iceaxe68]

postscript to my own post:

I have never been insulted or even snubbed by ANYONE in game. I'm just taking it on faith that such things occur.

So far, my experience has been entirely positive, aside from empathizing with those who seem so sad here. Anything I can do to make even one person feel better is worth my time and effort.

So, cheers all!

[tydamus]

OK guys, this thread has lost its purpose and is no longer constructive. All good points seem to have been exhausted some time ago.

For the benefit of everyone, this thread is now locked.

Regards,