Ability to officially cancel OPs

[whiterider]

This is kinda half a suggestion, half a discussion point - I could send a ticket but I want others' input and, ahem, if I send any more they'll shortly become eligible to be classed as spam :p

Anyway, I'm thinking it'd be a good idea for an attacking guild to be able to officially cancel an attack - flags and all. I dunno how this would be implemented, as I've never been on the attacking end of an OP while an HO; so I don't know what bits of interface this could be incorporated into. Possibly just have the attacking guild's GL/HO let their flag timeout, come back as neutral, and cancel the same way they declare.

It'd save a lot of hassle for both kamis and karas, I imagine, when one side realises they don't have enough people or whatever and announce that they're cancelling, which is immediately followed by the other side's faction chat drowning in "Yeah, but what if they come back?" "Do they mean it?" "Can we trust them?" - instead the attack would be cancelled, the NPCs vanish, the rounds stop, and the defenders automatically be awarded all rounds. It'd be neater and less open to sneaky tactics - especially in situations like Ginti today, wherein it's 2am for half the defenders, and if they decide to trust the attackers and leave the OP then most will log and as such can't be called back if the attackers have a change of heart.

First person to say "I don't think either side would do that!" gets a fish to the face; this isn't mainly about alleviating scaredy-puss tactics, it's about easing paranoia.

What do people think?
If we all agree... then maybe I'll actually send a(nother) ticket ;)

[komissar]

Good idea...

We have had many cases of "cutting off the nose to spite the face" before... People being angry, sad, frustrated or whatever declaring 5-6 ops at once and then a few hours later realising that this is not exactly the kind of behaviour suitable for Ryzomean community...

[akovylin]

If attacking guild not coming and haven't contacted csr to cancel op war - its leader and hos should be banned for a week or 2.... It was 4am for me if i would come and see no kara i would realy kill someone!!!

[rosarot]

Nice new strategic feature :D

[dakhound]

btw you used to be able to cancel wars before they started. Was abused even more. oddly this time by the non PvP players who used it to perma keep their op with no threat.

op war's were declared by an alt/friendly guild constantly on an outpost therefore 1 guild could keep their op in a constant state of war so no hostiles could attack etc. By allowing people to cancel they could guarantee to be there once op comes out of war state to declare again (yes people did this)

also just made it so one side never knew when the real attack was coming.

see this thread

http://forums.ryzom.com/showthread.php?t=20773&highlight=cancel+outpost


careful what you wish for

[setstyle]

I wouldn't mind seeing a cancellation available within, say, 30 minutes of declaration in order to prevent errors in battle times and such. However, as Jackoo said, anything otherwise does nothing to lessen the abuse potential. I'd be just as angry waking up for a false declaration at 4 A.M. whether I have to sit there for 2 hours or not.

[akovylin]

btw you used to be able to cancel wars before they started. Was abused even more. oddly this time by the non PvP players who used it to perma keep their op with no threat.

op war's were declared by an alt/friendly guild constantly on an outpost therefore 1 guild could keep their op in a constant state of war so no hostiles could attack etc. By allowing people to cancel they could guarantee to be there once op comes out of war state to declare again (yes people did this)

also just made it so one side never knew when the real attack was coming.

see this thread

http://forums.ryzom.com/showthread.php?t=20773&highlight=cancel+outpost


careful what you wish for

I'm talking about cancelling by talking to CSR that will be third trusted side. Don't split here your false Jena thoughts.

P.S. The situation with OP war declared at night and not even visited by "attacking" forces should be handled by CSRs as abuse and insult of all defenders that came.

[sunsh]

I agree that there should be some penalty for declaring war then failing to attack. Wars declared should be fought. Failure to appear should not be an option.

[whiterider]

Jack, I read most of that thread. It looks like there were two concerns raised:

Cancelling an attack refunds the dappers spent on declaring. I hadn't thought of this, but I don't believe it should - the reasons why are laid out pretty well in that thread; here, cancelling an attack would not refund anything. As sunsh says, there should be a penalty for failing to attack - I don't intend for that element to be removed.

The other concern is that friendly guilds could constantly declare and then cancel, in order to avoid hostile guilds getting a look in. Hmm. Theoretically, they still can - by just declaring and then no-one turning up. Costs them a fair bit, too. I don't think I've ever seen that happen (I've only been playing since '07, that patch was released in '06). And as for why - I suppose money could be one reason, which I've addressed above.
But risk of having an OP out of commission for a couple of hours if someone takes the opportunity to force it into the attacking friendly guild's hands - I don't think I've ever seen the economy at a point where... what, two or three stacks of cats makes that much difference to a guild or faction, to actually be an effective deterrent.
Of course, that could just mean that we haven't yet hit on the real reason why people don't do this :p I'd like to think it's because neither side are that fond of what can be described as sly and dishonourable tactics. I'm not sure if that's over-optimistic of me, I don't think it is.

Also, I was thinking that attacks would only be cancellable during the actual rounds. No real reason for this other than that no-one knows how many will be attending on each side until the timers start, and I can't think of another (good) reason to want to cancel.

[komissar]

I'm talking about cancelling by talking to CSR that will be third trusted side. Don't split here your false Jena thoughts.

P.S. The situation with OP war declared at night and not even visited by "attacking" forces should be handled by CSRs as abuse and insult of all defenders that came.

You are referring to this one?
http://www.neva.org/forum/files/war_cancelled_321.jpg
Or it's just general banter... Cause I really don't remember kara players/guilds attacking and not showing up... This was done often by Individuals like the Crescent moon etc. But not kara guilds...
(just so we are clear on this)

[akovylin]

Server crash? I'm getting confused - isn't it The New Empire was attacking? Kara Guild?

Anyway its your agitation and propaganda - I know Jena did it, she always do it the wrong way!!!

[whiterider]

I think Dago was referring to last night, when Ginti was attacked at midnight GMT, 1am UK time, and 3-4am for many other players (correct me if I'm wrong, Dago). However that wasn't a false declare, that was just a case of the attackers arriving to realise they were massively outnumbered, and so giving up when it became clear they wouldn't be able to win. Unfortunate, but not nasty tactics.

We have seen some false declares in the past, but I honestly don't know if that was guilds, alliances, individuals, or flying spaghetti monsters.

[sidusar]

Sounds like a good idea to me, as long as cancelling a declaration means your guild cannot attack the same outpost again for a week to prevent the kind of abuse Jacko mentions. :)

And yes, there should not be a refund of the dappers either. Unless perhaps if you cancel within half an hour of the declaration being made - I assume they only reason you'd do that is if you declared by mistake or at the wrong time.

I agree that there should be some penalty for declaring war then failing to attack. Wars declared should be fought. Failure to appear should not be an option.
Sounds only fair in theory, but think about how to implement it and you'll realise it doesn't work:

What counts as "failure to appear"? Does it count if 1 attacker shows up? 2? 5? 10? 20? 30? (That's still nothing if there's a 100 defenders.) Does it count if they only fight one round and then give up? Or if they fight two rounds and then give up? If they leave halfway?

It takes only one person/guild to declare an attack at some impossible hour (whether on accident or on purpose). Should the entire alliance then be forced to show up at that hour, skipping work or foregoing sleep, because of that single person's/guild's action?

On the other hand, should that one person/guild be held accountable if the rest of the alliance decides not to show up?

At best, you can say the guild that declares has an obligation to appear. But that obviously can't mean "every member in the guild". Or even "every active member", or "every high officer", or whatever. It's just unrealistic to expect that every single one of them is able to attend. So then who is personally obligated to appear?

And even if you could oblige every active member of the declaring guild to attack, for a lot of guilds that would mean perhaps a dozen people. I bet the 50-100 defenders that usually show up would still feel like they were standing there for nothing whether it was 0 or 10 attackers showing up.

[akovylin]

I think Dago was referring to last night, when Ginti was attacked at midnight GMT, 1am UK time, and 3-4am for many other players (correct me if I'm wrong, Dago). However that wasn't a false declare, that was just a case of the attackers arriving to realise they were massively outnumbered, and so giving up when it became clear they wouldn't be able to win. Unfortunate, but not nasty tactics.

We have seen some false declares in the past, but I honestly don't know if that was guilds, alliances, individuals, or flying spaghetti monsters.

Yup was 4am for me and i decided to sleep before working day =) as I understood they didn't even show atall and kami defenders had to wait for long time to be sure?

[komissar]

It's just that it makes me really sad to see people starting throwing accusations at each other when the game has barely made it out of the grave :(

No need for inflammatory posts imho - OP attacks and defences should happen in game and not on forums.

Nexus - a kami guild - holds an OP in matis so naturally kara matis guilds will attack it for RP sake if not for the sake of OP itself...
midnight GMT was 3 am for me so I couldn't be there, but I would certainly be there if the time was different. (Though i was happily killing kinchers in a Nexus team on the same day) The attacking guild was mainly US as are quite a few kara guilds so they attack at the time when they can muster more troops. The attackerscame, fought and where outnumbered so they ceased trying, which is also quite understandable... + there was a "server crash' that cancelled the attack...

Now that the situation is resolved let us please stop the flamewars and puns and all that - The game is back FFS aren't you happy anymore??

[whiterider]

Indeed, as Komi says, the attackers did show up, but there were only a few of them and a large group of defenders. It was Ginti that inspired me to make the thread (after reading kami chat when the attackers cancelled, lol); but I'm not just talking about one OP. Generalise, please! ;)

[akovylin]

It's just that it makes me really sad to see people starting throwing accusations at each other when the game has barely made it out of the grave :(

No need for inflammatory posts imho - OP attacks and defences should happen in game and not on forums.

Nexus - a kami guild - holds an OP in matis so naturally kara matis guilds will attack it for RP sake if not for the sake of OP itself...
midnight GMT was 3 am for me so I couldn't be there, but I would certainly be there if the time was different. (Though i was happily killing kinchers in a Nexus team on the same day) The attacking guild was mainly US as are quite a few kara guilds so they attack at the time when they can muster more troops. The attackerscame, fought and where outnumbered so they ceased trying, which is also quite understandable... + there was a "server crash' that cancelled the attack...

Now that the situation is resolved let us please stop the flamewars and puns and all that - The game is back FFS aren't you happy anymore??

Stop inflammatory posts - the game is part of life as any other activity the fact we sit at monitor doesn't make difference people play the games not "virtual avatars", if u see difference - visit your doctor. User's disappointment and questions should be addressed. If u consider someone's posts to be result of lack of info - provide it. The qestion of game in or out of grave is not the question of topic.

[eriu3]

indeed this isnt about ginti.

both side have had battles where there is obviously not point in continuing and have given up early and not gone the full 2 hours.

The only thing I can think of to automatically discontinue a battle so that others can go to sleep/do other activities is something like;

if the attackers do not cause any damage to a outpost guard for more than 5 continuous rounds the war is over unless the threshold has been met or something along those lines. (this wouldnt apply to the defense phase)

[sidusar]

On a sidenote, as far as I know no sneak attack (pretending to give up and then coming back later) has ever been succesfull. It's been tried a few times, but:
- a lot of the attackers will really give up and leave as well
- it's pretty hard to communicate to the entire force that you're only pretending to give up, without the other side finding out
- the later the attackers come back, the harder it gets to reach the treshold
- a lot of people consider this 'nasty tactics' and will have nothing to do with it
- it's only ever considered in the first place if the defenders outnumber the attackers by so much that half of the defenders could leave and they'd still hold out

I'd love to see a sneak attack actually succeed one day, but until it does there's really not much reason to be paranoid about it.

[dakhound]

it could work at silly o'clock because defenders dont go funninh about hunting but instead log and go to bed.

[aude03]

Nexus - a kami guild - holds an OP in matis so naturally kara matis guilds will attack it for RP sake if not for the sake of OP itself...
midnight GMT was 3 am for me so I couldn't be there, but I would certainly be there if the time was different.

Well...

No flame post there, dont want to hurt anyone but well....you can understand that some of us are a little "annoyed" by what happened last night..
For a lot of the defenders, euro people, the attack was scheduled in the middle of the night 1am to 4am, a week day....to see what ? : 19 attackers with ONLY 1 member of the attacking guild......giving up after 3 attacks. Did we have to stay for full 2 hours ?


what was really the purpose of the attack ? the op itself or ...?

[dakhound]

what was really the purpose of the attack ? the op itself or ...?

maybe testing numbers, saved me guessing now

karavan US players returning = nearly none
kami = lots

;)

[aude03]

maybe testing numbers, saved me guessing now

karavan US players returning = nearly none
kami = lots

;)

Well...when i see a full team of TNE hunting kinchies in my afternoon, beeing declared by same guild on my sleep time, and seeing only 1 of them at the attack....well....still wondering :)

[dakhound]

tbh I dont know the logic behind it, firstly I wasnt invited ;) secondly when I saw the time I thought it must be some mistake.

[sidusar]

you can understand that some of us are a little "annoyed" by what happened last night..
Naturally. As far as I can gather that wasn't the intention and something went wrong with the time... I know that I and several others were under the impression the attack would be 3 hours earlier. On a completely different day too. :rolleyes:

Personally I was all looking forward to the first real OP battle since the reopening, and was also annoyed to learn two hours beforehand that it'd be at the time it was, meaning I couldn't attend and even if I could it wouldn't be much of a battle with so many would-be-attackers not knowing about it. I imagine I wasn't the only one. :(

Hopefully we can have the real Reopening Battle soon. Perhaps you should be the attacking party this time, I'm sure we can get the time right if it's one of our own OPs that's at stake. :p

[whiterider]

STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD DAMNIT!

:rolleyes:

[sx4rlet]

Kinda sad we are bickering about outposts already again after we have just been able to play for two weeks. Might say something about our 'great community'....

edit: sorry, back to topic now please!

[danolt]

I do think that if the CSR's are willing to get involved that being able to cancel attacks is a good thing. I also think having a surrender button on the flag that can only be activated by the opposing GL during the attack might be worth considering.

Also, I really think a 2nd chance to confirm battle time would be a good idea. Meaning that there should be a prompt stating "do you really want to attack at such and such time".

In the case of the battle last night there was a great deal of confusion about the battle time. We found out about it about 2.5 hours before pop and were even under the impression that it was going to start an hour before it did.

One of the great joys of having the balance of power in the past was having to show up to defend OP's at all sorts of odd hours for days in a row. I would argue that some players left the game and will never return because of this. I also think that was the intention of many of the attacks, to harass and cause discomfort to the human player. I really see little that can be done mechanically to solve that problem.

Of course we need to keep in mind that their are two phases to an OP attack and that one may well have to risk going to the 2nd phase if they want a full nights sleep (or a job) on any given day.

Pero

[varden]

the ginti workshop was ment to be attack at a diffrent time and day but dew to a miss hit in the box to set it up it was clicked on the finish tab so it was set as the default day and time thats why there was so poor a turn out.as its been said there was no way to stop and reset the time and day so it had to go ahead :(