Guild Poaching

[mostevil]

I really just wanted to know the general view of this tbh, the question is

Is it ever acceptible to poach players from another guild?

Examples:

Posting your new guild forum link on other peoples forums and asking them to join.

Constantly pm members of your old guild and asking them to move to your new guild, to the point where people have had to put you on the ignore list.

As you can most likely tell i dont agree with it but i just wanted to know others point of view.

[katriell]

What you describe is entirely unacceptable, in my opinion.

A gentle, highly infrequent reminder to a player that they're welcome to join one's guild is acceptable if one has good reasons for it and the player's best interests in mind.

[acridiel]

Is it ever acceptible to poach players from another guild?

Depends on how its done.
If done "properly", which in my book means unintrusively and within the boundaries of common sense, it´s all up to the players if they decide to switch guilds.


Examples:

Posting your new guild forum link on other peoples forums and asking them to join.

Would be OK for me, if done only once in an "info-post". Like:
"Hey Guys, this is my new guild. Take a look and decide for yourself."


Constantly pm members of your old guild and asking them to move to your new guild, to the point where people have had to put you on the ignore list.

The ignore solution already answers this question.
No, it´s not acceptable behavior.
To hassle players and to get on their nerves will only make you look ridiculous and not gain you any sympathies. Probably even destroying those you had before.

Its just silly.

CU
Acridiel

[kalindra]

What you describe is a form of harassment. Plus, angering the people you're trying to recruit is clearly not the best way to make them join. Enough said.

[dakhound]

happens all the time but only people who are not totally happy with their current guild can be seduced so its not really a worry.

delete the link from yer guild forum, let the people who want to go join them and be happy with those who want to carry on building a strong guild.

when guilds split it is obviously worse as the other guild tend to have built relationships already with your/their old guild members.

[fiach]

happens all the time but only people who are not totally happy with their current guild can be seduced so its not really a worry.


What Jack said :)

[whiterider]

I'd say advertising your guild on another guild's forum is very bad manners... and it makes the rather patronising assumption that any members of that guild who aren't happy where they are need your help to find a guild better suited to them.

If you have a friend who you'd like to join your guild, then I'd agree with Acri that it's fine to make them the offer - and as Jack says, if they're happy they'll turn you down, but keep the offer in mind in future; if they're not, you might gain a guildie, without the need for impoliteness.

[vonzuben]

I’d say that normally poaching members is very bad form with the exception of close friends just talking amongst themselves about getting together if situations are changing.

But let’s suppose a guild has existed for 4 years, and its original GL stopped playing for 3 years, then suddenly returns, and within a week boots one of the most helpful, committed, and active HOs without getting to understand the situation whatsoever.

That HO just finished investing a significant portion of their last 2 years into building the guild and the guild has become very much a part of that HO. Now let’s suppose that HO decides that the only thing he/she can do to avoid just quitting the game, is to form a new guild founded by x-members of their previous guild.

In this situation I think it should be expected that this HO (now new GL) makes a point of speaking to all his or her friends who don’t agree with what happened and don’t support the new leadership of the old guild. (Essentially it was not just an HO who was kicked, because by doing so you’ve kicked half the guild)

This is not poaching members from a guild, it’s offering a solution to friends who wish to stay together and need a new home that they can feel comfortable in.

Now this is probably sounding rather specific and that’s because it is. Zella who started this thread is the above mentioned “original GL who stopped playing for 3 years”. If you’d like to know the details of the story you can CLICK HERE (http://heartofthunder.izfree.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5), but be warned it’s a long story most would probably rather stay out of it.

Also since this is essentially unwanted drama that does not belong on this forum, I’d welcome a moderator locking or deleting the thread. (not for myself since I welcome the opportunity for the truth to get out, but for the rest of the players who want to just have fun)


One thing I’d like to say is that for me, I’m having fun again. A fresh start is great! I know that problems in guilds are not that uncommon and it’s happening in other guilds right now as we speak. A problem occurring does not mean the guild is weak or has poor leadership. What counts is how it’s handled when it DOES occur. For me this is an excellent learning opportunity and will benefit myself and friends for RL situations too.

So let’s all go back to playing Ryzom and having fun. Remember to be good, but not too good! *lick*

[catfud]

I don't know the ins and outs of everything, I have read your "click here" forum post though.

From what I can tell it seems there was a lot of conflicting ideas of how things should be done amongst the HO and GL. IMO for a guild to be successful you really need the HOs and GLs all reading from the same page.

I definately think you will benefit from your new guild. I'd see this more as a divide in guild interests going seperate ways rather than poaching. The members should go with whatever guild rule set makes them happy. The change could very well help both guilds to grow and lessen tentions. Plus you have said you want the new guild to remain friendly with the old. It's good to have different guilds following different ways, means there is a home for everyone :)

If you need any help to kickstart your new guild Swee,t DCP are happy to help.

[zarozina]

If someone wants to leave one guild for another with whom they are friends, then they will do so and should be allowed to do so under their own steam. Poaching is not required. If they need to be "poached" then they either don't want to leave in the first place, or they are likely as not beng persuaded to do so by propaganda. As this puts neither the departing nor the recieving guild in a good light, the whole thing seems somewhat counterpriductive.

Secondly, if they can be persuaded to be poached once, then likely as not they can be persuaded again, which begs the question: Do you want that person in your newly formed guild anyway?

My 2 cents worth.

[dazman76]

It's a shame to see this happening. I'm afraid I don't know you SweetMarie, as I haven't played for some time now. I do know the Ghosts, in particular Zella who I always saw as a friendly and helpful person, and got on with very well. The cross-country trips in particular were very enjoyable :)

Anyhow, as I said it's a shame this is happening, but I've seen similar situations before in MMO land. Catfud said it pretty well, and his point is certainly a crucial one in these situations. I saw a very friendly and casual WoW guild fall apart, because we tried to merge with a raiding guild. This was done because members were getting bored, and we needed more heads to try the "endgame content". Thinking we had found the right kind of "casual raider guild", we merged in an attempt to keep our good friends from leaving us. The mix of incompatible attitudes quickly brought the guild to it's knees - luckily, it recovered, but only after most of the real "hardcore raiders(tm)" were ejected :)

When it comes to casual vs. organised, there is usually some amount of friction. Myself, I sit somewhere in the middle - I always prefer casual play, and while I naturally avoid any kind of strict organisation, I can appreciate that certain rules do need to exist, if only to keep everyone happy and avoid in-fighting between members.

I hope you guys don't have too much trouble over all of this, and that you can move on and continue having fun in your own ways :)

[vonzuben]

I agree with you completely Catfud and Ffionnys. Thing is, we have not talked to anyone not wanting to talk to us. What’s been described by Zella could only be hypothetical since its not reality and I’ll just leave it at that.

Dazam that’s interesting how you picked up on the question of casual versus organized. That has been part of the difference in views, but even a casual guild I think has members who need to know what the heck they are doing in an outpost war situation. Not knowing creates conflict.

[dazman76]

Not knowing creates conflict.

Indeed it does, and when it comes to things like Outposts, it is certainly worth knowing where everyone should stand on the matter :) WoW doesn't really have any mechanics like Outposts, but even so we had a small set of "base rules" that all members had to abide by. Mostly common sense, but they were rules all the same.

Anyhow, whichever side of the fence you reside on in this particular matter, I do still hope that it doesn't cause ongoing problems for you ingame. The Ryzom community has always been small and tight-knit, and while it continues to be small, it also needs to continue to be tight-knit :)

[vonzuben]

We are tight baby :p

[cielchan]

You should all leave your guilds instantly and join Arcueid's Booze Foundation! :p

[catfud]

You should all leave your guilds instantly and join Arcueid's Booze Foundation! :p

Do I get free beer?

[whiterider]

I knew the post was about you, Marie - I figured it was unlikely that anything I said would condemn you; and if it had, well, then that would have meant I disagreed with your actions :p.

The stuff mentioned about organisation is a good point - it's... very interesting being teamed with one person who likes to be methodical and make progress, and one who likes to run around in ever-widening circles to see if they can make it back to the water in time. :D

[dakhound]

*shrug* I try to convince everyone to join me but suck at it. hence I used to let the expert poachers deal with recruitment *cough*tyilin*cough*

[gralen]

My opinions (which, like feet, everyone has and they frequently stink):

Posting information about your new guild in your old guild's forum: OK as long as you only post once. That's no different than giving your friends your new address when you move.

Asking friends to join your new guild via tells: OK as long as you only do it once, anything more than that is bordering on badgering/harassment. Of course, if it just comes up as a natural part of the conversation then ask but use your common sense, if it comes up as part of every conversation...badgering.

Poaching is, in my book, when one specifically sets out to recruit currently guilded homins with whom one does not already have a relationship. Gonjal just announced in Uni that he really wants to finish his elemental master, you specifically start helping Gonjal just so you can try to persuade him to join your guild. Or you invite a group of new Tryker Trekkers to level with you, feed them cats left and right, all just to convince them to join the Fyros Firefighters. These things are poaching. There is no real way to "protect" against these other than for guild leaders to condemn such practices among their own officer ranks.

[fiach]

Dont forget the ancient art of "The Ninja" Gorran :)

[memiki]

Well I am not sure about poaching or not.
I think of poaching an egg when I hear it.

I see nothing wrong with telling people, I have a new guild come check us out.
People should be able to make up their own minds. At least I hope so.

Think guilds have always tried to recruit new players by giving gifts and all that is the way it is.

I would think posting on old guild forum to be a tad tacky in my thoughts. If friends want to join the new one they will.

It is to bad that guild do have conflicts but it happens and sometimes just wise to move on.

Hope all is well with your new guild.

[gralen]

Dont forget the ancient art of "The Ninja" Gorran :)

Ninja invites, oh man we don't even want to touch that now do we. hehe

[Gorran valiantly resists the urge to write a long diatribe on the subject]

[jared96]

I'd say advertising your guild on another guild's forum is very bad manners... and it makes the rather patronising assumption that any members of that guild who aren't happy where they are need your help to find a guild better suited to them.

Clarification I think needed here.....I have been asked to join MANY guild forums and I do so without ever thinking they have "poaching" in their minds. There is a lot of useful information on various guild web sites and after being invited to register on a guild's web site, I will often provide a link back to ours for the same purpose, with a reciprocal offer. You are welcome to come and join our forums and "mine" whatever cool info we have posted on ours. This is in no way intended to be a recruitment tool.

If you have a friend who you'd like to join your guild, then I'd agree with Acri that it's fine to make them the offer - and as Jack says, if they're happy they'll turn you down, but keep the offer in mind in future; if they're not, you might gain a guildie, without the need for impoliteness.

I wouldn't feel comfortable doing or experiencing that either from the offering or receiving end. Unless a peep makes it known that he is looking for a new home and that the fit where he / she is just isn't working out for all concerned, I don't think it's appropriate to be making offers.

[hemera]

The irony in all of this is that if people within a guild can have a set of base/ground rules none of the infighting that causes members to leave/be kicked out would happen.

Decied on where you stand on matter. ie botting, age of members, swearing, trades of cats, disrespacting older members, power leveling people. The leader has to decisive and cant screw around.
A GL that takes side's or stand back and lets people act like idiots sucks. The main reason people will poach is because they have been kicked out of a guild. The matter could have been sorted by taking a hard stand or setting up rules.
Often if its a HO, they can be demoted, thats the reason we have ranks. You can always kick but that should be the last option.

*cough* *cough* poaching is fine it shows some respect, unless its by a pissed off person who you just kicked out, then its the guilds won problem. Shouldn't be brought to the main forums.

[whiterider]

jared - a guild and its forums are separate. Yes, asking people to join your guild's forum on another guild's forum is no issue, because you can be part of as many forums as you like. The issue is with asking people to join the actual guild, on another guild's forums.

[iphdrunk]

Uhm... by the way, are you all happy with your current guilds? :p

[xzizoux]

Uhm... by the way, are you all happy with your current guilds? :p

I´m more than just Happy with GoJ and Goj wont get rid of me anymore :D

[dakhound]

Uhm... by the way, are you all happy with your current guilds? :p

can I join your guild ani!

[scarazi]

can I join your guild ani!

I was thinking of poaching Ani actually, not sure if her guild would let me though

[killgore]

Hands off!! My Ani when she gets lonely and leaves guild:)-Kil

[jared96]

jared - a guild and its forums are separate. Yes, asking people to join your guild's forum on another guild's forum is no issue, because you can be part of as many forums as you like. The issue is with asking people to join the actual guild, on another guild's forums.

Yes, we are in agreement. But as originally posted, this didn't appear clear so I made an attempt to clarify.

[dakhound]

I was thinking of poaching Ani actually, not sure if her guild would let me though

think we've all tried at some point :D

[thlau]

Uhm... by the way, are you all happy with your current guilds? :p
Jupp. I still feel happy in my little guild.

[camlost2]

Guild poaching is not always bad. In many cases you get your ranks cleaned of less the loyal members and you often get rid of people not contributing anything to guilds that way. Speaking from experience.

But in general, it's annoying and frawned upon, no matter your excuse to do it.


Sweetmarie,

Trying to blame Zella or anyone else for what happened will do you no good. If you want to blame anyone other than yourself blame me. Heck, even accuse me of having a personal vendetta against you if you like, anything goes. Dragging Zella (or any other of my members for that matter) into what was my decission, just because she was assigned a task as a HO, is a no go.

How you will run your guild from here is entirely up to you. Guild recruitment and diplomatic matters alike. You have my full support in creating your guild and all and any ex-ghosts shall be treated with respect. From us and hopefully everyone else. All friendly requests will be welcomed. What you should not do in the long run is thriwing off other guilds because it would only make you look so much worse than what you are trying to make us look like.

Regards

[vonzuben]

Oh trust me Beren I do blame you.

Your story is that you made the decision, then “executed my kicking” by promoting Zella temporarily to GL and having her do it for you. While this was going on you clearly lied to me by pretending you did not even know it was happening. Now you expect this ridiculous cover-up story to be believed? Nobody that knows you believes you are so spineless to have someone do your job for you. Fact of the matter is that you have been very dishonest.

Now Zella comes to have her grudge with me in a public forum, followed by you accusing your X-members of being less loyal and “not contributing”. Then you say in the same post “any ex-ghosts shall be treated with respect”. You and I had some great times because you are a nice guy, but you are a pathetic leader.

[kalindra]

I think this thread should be closed before more mud is thrown. The public forums are not a laundromat. ;)

[vonzuben]

Agreed and proposed that in my first post.

[dakhound]

I think this thread should be closed before more mud is thrown. The public forums are not a laundromat. ;)

booooo first bit of drama in months and you propose to close

[boroshi]

Thread locked