Discussion: Can/Should Crafting be Made Easier?

[tinpony]

Hey guys,

Looooong post, sorry... but it's a quiet day at work.

I was thinking about a couple things I'd add to the wishlist as far as crafting goes. But then I figured that I'm only a mid-level crafter (120 light/heavy armour, 140 2H swords, pikes, axes and amps) so before I got slapped down by high level crafters, I thought I'd post them here and you can chip in and tell me what you guys think.

1) More Packer Space
While I can admit that the 500,000 bulk was a tad excessive (especially given the 64 slots we got to fill it) I would love to see packer bulk rates go up a bit. 5,000 would be amazing for me. We now have 100 slots which can each hold 49.5 bulk for a stack of 99 mats. Do I need 100 stacks of mats? Sure! Will I ever get 100 stacks of mats? Nope! Maybe pay more for a packer. I'd pay 1 mill daps for a 5000 bulk packer. Heck, I'd pay 500,000 daps for a 2000 bulk packer. We're talking the difference between a minature horse and a clydesdale here.

Upside is it allows more flexibility in crafting. No more sacrificing good mats to make room for better mats. It would allow me as a crafter to keep bulk supplies on hand for things like weapons or heavy armour which I almost never do on the fly anymore. Hey, I might even get back into heavy armour craft. It would also mean maybe no more vendors as storage. While perhaps that guy really was truly attempting to sell basic anete fiber at 20K a piece, methinks he was simply using the vendor as a place to store items.

Downside, for non-crafters, mat hoarding may take place. Less of a reason to sell them off and therefore less supply for crafters. Also, possible downside is that the richer crafters may simply buy out the marketplace for grind mats. Again, lower availability of mats on an already limited market.

2) Examine failure stats
Since beta, I have maintained that the failure stats for crafters are fubared. As examples: In beta, using my jewelcraft 50 skill to create q50 earring in runs of 15, I averaged 2-3 successes per 15. That's using mats at my skill level to create an item at my skill level.

I recently created a run of 10 full suits of q120 light armour using q120 mats (basic-choice) with skills at 105-111 in my various light branches. So, a maximum of 15 skill levels between my desired work and my actual stats. I found the success rates to fluctuate wildly. Boots, my success rate was on the scale of 60% (I'm counting a full 'failure, no items used just a fail message' in there). For gloves and sleeves, it dropped to 40%. For vests and skirts, closer to 90%.

Some of that can be accounted for by the difference in skill levels. To contrast, I made a run of 20 q110 daggers using a L61 skill. My success rates for q110 daggers L61 skill was exactly the same as q110 gloves with a L106 skill. For the run of 20 of each that I did to compare, the success rate was 20% for both (attempted the craft 20 times, finally tally includes failures that produced no items). I'll also note, that I've done runs of 20 that had 18/20 successes. Success seems to be more random than any true statistic.

That would not fly for any other profession. At L87 PR forage (before the recent 'improvements') I could pull L100 mats without any quality drops. So my ability to pull items with a 13 level difference was 100% (not including other factors like explosions and the like that I will address later). If you want to stick to aboveground comparisons, I can pull q70 mats in Fyros with my q58 skill without spoiling the quality 100% of the time. If you pull a level too high, you can spoil the quality of the mats. However you *can* undo that, if you manage to forage long enough. You cannot undo or mitigate a quality failure in craft.

Compare to melee. At L140, I stand a reasonable chance of being able to kill something 20 levels higher than me. Like crafting, melee is a success/not success. You either kill your enemy or they kill you. Imagine a melee with only a 40-60% chance of killing something (anything) 10 levels higher than them. We heard the outcry with the gingo attacks in Matis.

And on a related note:

3) Give stanzas to improve crafting successes.

Every other class has stanzas to improve basic success rates. Fighters get improved accuracy, greater damage and taunts that go up in level. Mages get concentration and credits to improve range on spell. Harvesters get careplans, explosion reduction and area/material specialisations. Crafters get... nothing.

How about a 'steady hands' stanza to improve crafting percentages from a pathetic base 80% for quality=skill level to 90%. HP/STA credits to give greater successes. Something you buy every twenty-five levels to improve your accuracy.

Good side: Well, allows for a greater percentage of successes.

Bad side: I already have the next 1000 skill points 'spent' in my mind, I hate to use up those, but it would be a worthwhile cause. Also there may be coding problems with people using the 'credits' to add increased stat bonuses like HP or STA onto the items.

4) Reduce the Amount of XP needed to level.

Before the skill trees split, it would take five or six full suits of light armour to level one level in light. I know there are crafters who burn their way through one branch and then suck up the fails on the other to try to get as high as possible as fast as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. I've tried to keep my skills somewhat level, so it goes slower. I also try to make full sets, instead of the runs of 20 or 30 or the same piece (with the exception of testing fail rates, ).

Now, it takes 15-20 combines per level in five branches. Obviously, the big stuff like vests/skirts gives more XP and I'm factoring in the many reduced quality stuff that also has reduced XP. That's 15-20 full suits for one level (in each of five branches). I would drop that to the equivant of 2/3 of current XP.

Goodside? Well, fairly obvious.

Bad side? Maybe too late to do this. At this point, do you recalculate XP or just screw over everyone with the fortitude to make it to L200 already? If the game were still in beta, I might have suggested looking at changing the skill tree splits at 100 to upper body (sleeves, gloves, vests) and lower body (boots, pants, caster's pants) and then split into the five types at L150 or even L175. But we're not in beta, and it's probably too late now.

5) More armour customisation
This is rather trivial when compared to the others, but maybe allow for secondary colours in armour. I personally dislike the gaudy gold trim on higher level armours. I would like an option to replace that with a secondary. For example, if the majority of my mats are black, and the minority are red, create black armour with red trim. I think it would give crafters some other ways to make unique and interesting goods. Ditto for weaponcraft. Bring colours into the weapons. Create a blue sword with black hilt. That would be cool.

6) Repairing Things
Face it, we can't keep up with demand right now. Why not let us repair something? A completely repaired suit can also be resold on the vendors to younger players when it is no long useful to its original owners. Put repair as a trainable tree, that you have to level. I wouldn't even mind if it took a mat or two to add on to the repair. Prevents widescape overuse, but allows for options.

Alternately, create a pawnshop for those less-than perfect items. They can sell at vendor price, no markup. There will be no profit in it, but it will put more items out there for the general population.

In conclusion (finally), Nevrax, you seriously want to make crafting something many people do. Crafters are the *only* source for any reasonable armour, weapons, and everything. Vendors give no HP bonuses and the stats on the weapons are junk.

When you make the arming and armouring of all of Atys the sole responsibility of the crafters, it really needs to be something that people want to do, and that many people actively *like* doing. I'm familiar with almost all the names on the boards for the vendored armour. Losing Fuzz is a big blow to us as he made darn good stuff at a reasonable price. Many armourers keep their patterns and their goods strictly in guild and I get three or four tells a day when I log in of people requesting high level stuff that are told off by high level crafters. They don't have the time or materials to 'waste' on non-guilded people.

The only q200 amp I have ever seen on the vendors was a vendor amp with an added crystallised spell that sold for 1 mill daps. Many of the L200 mages I know can't get amps, and amp craft is one of the easiest branches to level. Hell, I can make a 99/99 amp if I have the materials, but I'm only L140. I have people on waiting lists for when I get to L200. I can't help these folks. And right now, nobody can help these folks... and there's many, many more coming up and many, many more training.

So that's me... how do you guys feel about it?

Tin.

[xcomvic]

I am happy with how crafting works already.


1) More Packer Space

Buy more packers.


2) Examine failure stats

It should not be REALLY easy to craft. Sometimes people make mistakes in crafting...hence the crappy craft.

3) Give stanzas to improve crafting successes.

THere is currently no need to stanza in craft other than the +boosts (hp,stam, focus, sap)


4) Reduce the Amount of XP needed to level.

It is REALLY easy to level in craft as long as you have the neccesary mats, which you get by FORAGING yourself. Honestly this is a LONG TERM GAME, not something that you want to be 250 in less than 30 days. You have to actually put some time and effort into this to get something out of it, which can be applied to anything in life.


5) More armour customisation

Something we agree on! I say there needs to be something to allow each crafter's work to be distinguishable from each and every other crafter. THe only way to distinguish each armor of the same quality is the NAME in the crafter slot... that is pathetic in my opinion. I would like to be able to change the appearance somewhat. Maybe have an OPTIONAL MAT slot, where depending on which mat you use it affects the outcome of the design of the armor/weapon.

6) Repairing Things

NO WAY! Before i started my FOrage/Craft obssesion I would have agreed with you, but I want to make some REAL money by forcing people to buy things from me that I put sale! In anycase NOTHING in my inventory has broken yet since I first started playing over a month ago.

And that's how I feel about it.

I like your post btw.

[tetra]

Originally Posted by xcomvic

In anycase NOTHING in my inventory has broken yet since I first started playing over a month ago.

You must still be pretty low level... or not telling the truth.

[xcomvic]

Originally Posted by tetra

You must still be pretty low level... or not telling the truth.

What does low level has to do with anything? And I am telling the truth...

[tetra]

Originally Posted by xcomvic

What does low level has to do with anything? And I am telling the truth...

Because you outgrow your equipment faster than it can wear out at low levels.

[xcomvic]

Originally Posted by tetra

Because you outgrow your equipment faster than it can wear out at low levels.

Ah, I see your point... then this current gear has been on me for 2 weeks.

[tinpony]

Originally Posted by xcomvic

Buy more packers.

I'm not sure if you know this yet, but packers are limited to three per person. A total of 1500 bulk. I keep one mek for personal gear (my own heavy/light armour, weapons and amps) as well as sales samples. Yep, I'm a crafter that will let you try on a mix of armour and see what you like. I also may have different qualities of amps available. For example, I can make you a 100/65 healer amp, or an 83/83 healer amp. Up to you.

I've quit making heavy armour because of the amount of mats it requires. Likewise, for the most part, I've given up making weapons at above q140 for the meanwhile. I still do commision work, but when the bigshell I have is gone, that'll be it. I concentrate mostly on light armour and amps. It takes about 15-18 combines per amps per level. That's 300-360 mats per level. One packer holds 3 levels worth of mats for one of the eleven branches I currently level. I have an apartment, but its limited accessiblity makes it pretty much useless for anything but long term storage.

Originally Posted by xcomvic

It should not be REALLY easy to craft. Sometimes people make mistakes in crafting...hence the crappy craft.

Here, I will politely disagree with you. If there were ten crafters to every fighter, that would be one thing. Now, there are very few crafters. We don't have the population to be able to afford constant failures in crafting. I don't want it 'easy', but I find crafting boring now. And I love crafting. I adore it. Well, I did. Now, I'm disheartened by it and contemplating giving it up altogether.

The marketplace will sort itself out. Right now, armour that I sell for 100K in Zora sells comparatively in Fyros for 400K. There aren't enough crafters at that level to balance the prices out and provide meaningful competition. If I want to make quick cash, I make a suit of black q120 and toss it on the Fyros markets. It sells in under a day. That's fine if all I want is money, and all I'm concerned with is my own bank account, but I'm actually hoping to be a supplier for the common folk, not an elite type crafter. If I get to high quality patterns, I'll make them, and I'll put them on the vendors.

Originally Posted by xcomvic

It is REALLY easy to level in craft as long as you have the neccesary mats, which you get by FORAGING yourself. Honestly this is a LONG TERM GAME, not something that you want to be 250 in less than 30 days. You have to actually put some time and effort into this to get something out of it, which can be applied to anything in life.

I realise that. Having played for over three months now, I am still only a mid-level crafter. I certainly don't want a WoW situation where you can walk three steps and level, or where one craft combine gets you a full level. I've played WoW for a week and bumped my tradeskills up to 190/300. I find that too easy and wonder at the long term playability.

Ryzom is a game I could love long term. But at the same time, I don't want to powerlevel crafting. I'm happy to have it take six months for me to get to top level in light armour... that still leaves me heavy and weapons and amps. I'm hamstrung by not having a guild, but that was my choice. It has advantages and disadvantages.

Originally Posted by xcomvic

6) Repairing Things

NO WAY! Before i started my FOrage/Craft obssesion I would have agreed with you, but I want to make some REAL money by forcing people to buy things from me that I put sale! In anycase NOTHING in my inventory has broken yet since I first started playing over a month ago.

You must be very lucky. I've gone through several sets of armour, not including the stuff I've outgrown. And that's not including the late and unlamented armour bugs.

I enjoy money-making. I enjoy making unique items. I've refused to share some of my craft recipes with friends in game because I like knowing them. I'm not the only one that does, for sure, but I like that little advantage.

Ryzom, as it stands, does not have the population to support the huge market potential that is out there. Nor does money have any meaning. What use do non-crafters have for money beyond equipment upgrades? With one suit of armour being good for 20+ levels, especially since yours never break, that's not a lot of money.

In my levels of melee, I have bought one suit of armour that will last me until L170 or until I break it (I made my own until I needed higher than q120). I have a q160 sword that I've used for some time and I'll use 'til I break it. Packers and apartments are one-time investments unless you actually left town with the packers. Teleport tickets get to be your only real cost.

As someone who has logged in to find 3mill daps in her account, I seriously ask, what use is money? I buy mats with it. Aside from that... <shrug> I have no incentive to get more.

Tin.

[starsus]

Originally Posted by xcomvic

In anycase NOTHING in my inventory has broken yet since I first started playing over a month ago.

On this note i would like to say the new jewelry degrade is way to fast for crafters to keep up with..

Our guild jewelry crafter was having enough work keeping up with poeple out growing his jewelry now that they ware out in 2-3 days especailly for casters is quit sad..

I suggest tweek or double the hp for the jewelry or make it that only only special attacks from mobs or duels degrade the jewelry....

Just do somthing... basic and supreme ware the same i i have looked.. supreme lasts a little longer but not much longer probably about an half a day longer..

Our crafter has vanished for a few days to stop being buged for jewlery..

[josephm]

Ever notice how crafting takes up almost NO focus? What if they reduced xp to level and made crafting sap large amounts of focus so that you had to regenerate your focus? This means people would be crafting out in the field, It'd be something to do during sap/hp downtime. It'd also mean more items got sold out in the field rather than in towns. This would also encourage us to use our packers for what they are, mobile inventory. Currently many of us use them as an apartment. If this is gonig to be the case, Why not allow us 3 apartments and one packer? at 136 harvest I'm also using focus heal 3. I only use 8+ when I die. I'm happy with the way harvest focus works atm, but high focus heals are relatively useless.

This change is then split into two options:
A. Xp to level is reduced only to be equivalent to the amount of time the stamina takes to regen. Everything else stays the same.
B. Harvesting pulls a much lower amount of materials, lets say 1/3rd. Xp to level is heavily adjusted to incorporate stamina AND material harvesting changes. Also cut down on mob material spawns by 1/3. Kitin load 3 items and yubo load 1-2 items every two or so kills. It sounds like a large decrease, but remember that the materials required to level are decreased by an equal amount.

I prefer B because it drives prices up on all equipment. Even basic armor will finally mean more than store armor and sell for more, as it should. Further limits excellent and supreme crafted items. Packers will not have to be changed because thier space for materials is effectively tripled...But items still take up good bulk to prevent stockpiling. (right now I use 1 packer for items 2 for mats.)

My suggestion isn't meant to change the amount of time it takes to level crafting. If anything I think it should be balanced so it stays the exact same. My method is proposed to remove a lot of the 'grind' and 'boredom' and annoying 'point click point click' of the crafting experience. I think it will also solve a lot of the packer complaints in a balanced way.

Crafting in this game has been introduced in this game as an absolute nessecity. Yet it's hard as hell to do because it's simply A. Boring, B. Requires boring harvesting C. Boring...did I mention boring?

If crafting were made an integral part of what we do while out in the field, you'd see a lot more usage out of packers, p2p trade, basic and fine materials.

Edit:
One thing I forgot to mention is that I've noticed 80% of my 'junk' comes from the grind. It comes from suits of armor that are totally fine and as perfect as my skill and materials will allow...and they're junk because they won't be used by another player. The other 20% are degrades. To me this is totally Inexplicably worthless. Having 19 sets of perfectly useable armor that are worthless in the eyes of the crafter delude any sense of purpose in crafting. In essence, it deludes content because there is no 'achievement' attained other than a new stanza every 5 hours of harvest/crafting.

the system should make it so that 80-90% of your 'junk' are the degrades. The % chance for success should be the same, but with less xp tnl and a much lower output of items, there will be less 'crap' in the markets, for us to deal with, etc.

[roninpvp]

Originally Posted by josephm

Ever notice how crafting takes up almost NO focus?

I depends on the amount of boost you put on the item. I actually chew through my focus several times making gear. And yes I have a good amount of focus 3300+ iirc.