ATS: Weight and stamina changes

[boroshi]

From the news here we have some new things in test on the ATS! Please leave your feedback on the weight/stamina changes in this thread.

Important feature concerning melee users: your consumption of Stamina will depend on the weight of your weapon.
It is important for us to get your feedback on this point as this will most likely change your fighting habits. The goal of this change is to make the melee fights more interesting and to give a meaning to the "weight" statistic of weapons. Crafters are welcome to try new recipes to provide different kind of weapons and help testing combat.

For the other changes, please leave feedback here.

[sidusar]

I'll list the changes in the system here for those who can't get on the ATS.

Current system: Stamina cost is the same for all weapons and equal to half the credit it gives. The highest stamina credit gives 250 credit and thus costs (0,5 * 250 =) 125 stamina.

New system: Stamina cost depends on the weight of the weapon, and is roughly 0,056 stamina per credit per kilogram. The highest stamina credit gives 250 credit and thus costs (0,056 * 250 =) 14 stamina per kilogram

It's important to note that the dependance on weapon weight only affects the stamina credits. The health credits are still independant on weight and the same for every weapon. (Health cost equal to 1/4th of the credit; highest health credit gives 200 credit and costs 50 health.) While this does seem inconsistent, I also think it adds an interesting difference between the health credit and the stamina credit, and so I vote it stays that way.

New weight of the weapons (an asterisk means the weight has been changed):

Staff: 0,5 to 1 kg (*)
Dagger: 1,2 to 2,4 kg (*)
Amplifier: 2 to 4 kg (*)
Spear: 2 to 4 kg (*)
1H Sword: 3 to 6 kg
1H Axe: 4 to 8 kg (*)
1H Mace: 4 to 8 kg
Pike: 4 to 8 kg (*)
2H Sword: 6 to 12 kg
2H Axe: 8 to 16 kg
2H Mace: 8 to 16 kg

Pistol: 1,5 to 3 kg (*)
Bowpistol: 1,5 to 3 kg (*)
Rifle: 2 to 4 kg
Bowrifle: 2 to 4 kg (*)
Autolauncher: 8 to 16 kg
Launcher: 8 to 16 kg

(Unarmed combat seems to act as if you were wielding a weapon of around 0,5 kg.)

A weapon with 0% weight precraft will be twice as heavy as a weapon with 100% weight precraft, and thus cost twice as much stamina to use. This seems fair given that a weapon with 100% damage precraft will also do twice as much damage as one with 0% and a weapon with 100% speed precraft will be twice as fast as one with 0%.

Comparing the current system to the new one, the stamina cost stays the same for weapons with a weight of 9 kilogram. (Since 9 * 14 = 126 and the current stamina cost is 125 for all weapons.) 9 kilogram is the weight of a 2H Sword with 50% weight precraft, and the weight of a 2H Mace or Axe with 88% weight precraft. In other words, stamina cost will increase only for 2H Axes and Maces (except very well crafted ones) and for poorly crafted 2H Swords. For all other weapons the stamina cost will be less than it is now.

[sidusar]

And here's a few tables for easy reference of what exactly this means for the differences between weapons.

All values assume the best possible non-rubarn weapons. Quality 250, 100% weight, 100% speed, 100% damage, and using the highest stamina credit. I assume the melee weapons are using Increase Damage and the ranged weapons are using Increase Hitrate. Assuming different stats would only change all values equally. (ie. assuming 0% weight instead of 100% would multiply every value under the new system by 2)

Stamina consumption under the current system.

Stamina consumption per attack.
All weapons: 125

Stamina consumption per minute:
Staff: 3750
Dagger: 7500
Unarmed: 3000
Amplifier: 1875
Spear: 4875
1H Sword: 4875
1H Axe: 4875
1H Mace: 4875
Pike: 4125
2H Sword: 3750
2H Axe: 3375
2H Mace: 3375
Pistol: 7500
Bowpistol: 7500
Rifle: 6000
Bowrifle: 6000
Autolauncher: 3000
Launcher: 3000

Damage/Stamina ratio:
(The higher this is, the more damage you get out of your stamina.)
Staff: 2,2
Dagger: 2,2
Amplifier: 1,5
Unarmed: 1,5
Spear: 5,9
1H Sword: 5,9
1H Axe: 5,9
1H Mace: 5,9
Pike: 7,1
2H Sword: 8,8
2H Axe: 10,6
2H Mace: 10,6
Pistol: 2,8
Bowpistol: 2,8
Rifle: 3,7
Bowrifle: 3,7
Autolauncher: 8,8
Launcher: 13,2

Stamina consumption under the new system.

Stamina consumption per attack.
Staff: 7
Dagger: 17
Amplifier: 28
Unarmed: 8
Spear: 28
1H Sword: 42
1H Axe: 56
1H Mace: 56
Pike: 56
2H Sword: 84
2H Axe: 112
2H Mace: 112
Pistol: 21
Bowpistol: 21
Rifle: 28
Bowrifle: 28
Autolauncher: 112
Launcher: 112

Stamina consumption per minute:
Staff: 210
Dagger: 1020
Amplifier: 420
Unarmed: 192
Spear: 1092
1H Sword: 1638
1H Axe: 2184
1H Mace: 2184
Pike: 1848
2H Sword: 2520
2H Axe: 3024
2H Mace: 3024
Pistol: 1260
Bowpistol: 1260
Rifle: 1344
Bowrifle: 1344
Autolauncher: 2688
Launcher: 2688

Damage/Stamina ratio:
Staff: 39,4
Dagger: 16,2
Amplifier: 6,9
Unarmed: 24
Spear: 26,2
1H Sword: 17,5
1H Axe: 13,1
1H Mace: 13,1
Pike: 15,8
2H Sword: 13,1
2H Axe: 11,8
2H Mace: 11,8
Pistol: 16,4
Bowpistol: 16,4
Rifle: 16,4
Bowrifle: 16,4
Autolauncher: 9,9
Launcher: 14,8

It can be seen that daggers and pistols, which currently cost much more stamina than anything else, will cost much less stamina under the new system. In general, under the current system the melee weapons that do less damage cost more stamina, giving them very little benefit. Under the new system the melee weapons that do less damage will also consume less stamina (both per attack and per minute) and have a better damage/stamina ratio. This seems more fair to me; if you want to do more damage per minute, you have to consume more stamina for your damage.

[sidusar]

Flaws in the new system as it is on the ATS:

• The third stamina credit stanza gives 16 credit and costs 0,78 stamina per kilogram. This gives it a stamina per kilogram per credit value of about 0,049, whereas every other stamina credit stanza has a value between 0,055 and 0,056. The stamina cost for this stanza should be 0,89 stamina per kilogram instead of 0,78 in order to match the others.
• The ranged weapons either do not have the correct weight listed on them, or do not use the correct weight in calculating their stamina consumption. (This is why I haven't included them in the above lists.) [Fixed.]
• The bowrifle is twice as heavy as the rifle and thus costs twice as much stamina, while it doesn't have any advantages over the rifle. This needlessly handicaps them. [Fixed.]
• Likewise, the 1handed melee weapons have their weight differences implemented already, but otherwise remain the same as they are now. They all have 367 damage, 39 speed, and no modifiers. This gives the 1handed spear an unfair advantage over the others until the time the rest of the rebalances will be implemented. As such I hope you won't patch the weight&stamina changes onto the live servers until the modified values for 1handed weapons are ready to go along with them.
• [Added:]When wielding two different objects in both hands, the stamina consumption takes the average of the weight of both things. This happens with gun and ammo (where the stamina consumption should only depend on the gun) and with dual-wielding sword/dagger (where the stamina consumption should probably take the sum of the weight of both weapons). I forgot to check, but it's possible it also happens with shields.

Suggestions:

• At first glance I'd say it looks fairly good. The only thing I don't agree with is making pikes lighter than 1handed maces and axes. Pikes are still 2handed weapons and (I assume) will do more damage and have lower speed than 1handed maces/axes. And besides, the difference is minimal anyway, it wouldn't make that much difference to just make the pike's weight 4 to 8 kilogram as well. The 3,85 to 7,7 kilogram (as it seems to be) is just odd. [Edit:]Changed my mind about this, I can't really judge until we know what 1H axes and maces will do.
• I have a similar feeling about the weight of the spear, but I can't really judge on that until I know what you'll do with the rest of it's stats.

That's all from me for now. Apologies for the triple post, but it seemed too much information for a single one.

[vguerin]

Originally Posted by sidusar

That's all from me for now. Apologies for the triple post, but it seemed too much information for a single one.

Excellent work !

[tigrus]

Originally Posted by vguerin

Excellent work !

Quoted for emphasis

Amasing work Sidusar.

[Marjo]

Thank you Sidusar!
FYI, we've just patched the ATS with some tweaking of dagger, spear and pike's weight.

[camlost2]

Great news and great work Sidusar

[forever]

Just a thought, now that the melee users can use less Stam will this make them stronger in PvP? I don't think this will change 1 vs 1 or small little fights but what about long drawn out battles with lots of Homins.
One of the limiting factors of a melee was they used their Stam fast and if a healer stops to give them Stam they need to stop healing their HP. Now that the melee can use less Stam they will need less Stam heals and can do more damage longer with their healer just healing HP.

I think melee has a little edge on nukers now; will this give them a little more?

[kuroari]

*blinks* interesting note Neva.. imho though i think i'm all for the less stamina consumption. in the PvE sense it may make it easier to solo in HA? (i never solo in heavy armor because of the penalty drain) but this -could- alter that?

also.. what with the changes to healing made way back some year and a half ago, stamina i think was always very easy to heal - and i _never_ use my max stamina (or sap) heals when im healing a party.. usualy a 160ish stamina heal is more than enough, no need to bother going way up to 250...
the new drains could complicate things in ways thatll be very interesting looking forward to it!

and Sid... WOW, that was _INSANE_ .. i'm speechless