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raynes
February 2nd, 2005, 06:50 PM
A Warning To The Karavan

So far you have watched the faithful followers of the Kami reach in and strike at your presence in the homeland of the Zorai. While we seek to rid the land of goo, your followers build camps to protect it. This can not be allowed. The AntiKamiís and the Goo Heads have both felt the power of the Kami. Soon The Black Circle, The Master of the Goo, and even your close servants of The Kuild will experience the wrath of the Kami. Your camps are not safe and your tribe members hunted. Flee now while you still can.

madnak
February 2nd, 2005, 07:26 PM
The Karavan are enemies of the goo. Your slander is useless. You can kill tribes protected by Karavan all you like. They will be restored. And things aren't so black and white. Everyone is under the protection of either the Karavan or the Kami. That doesn't make them fanatical allies - in many cases the affiliation is very loose at best.

The only thing you're proving here is your obsession and militaristic extremism.

zumwalt
February 2nd, 2005, 08:20 PM
*stumbles out of the green mist*
*drools and mumbles something about gooooo*
*falls down*


.....

*hours later wakes up, looks around and finds some goo infested weed*
*rolls a goodoobie*
*smokes it and blows out green mist*

*drools*

*passes out dreaming of goo*

sk8rss
February 2nd, 2005, 10:31 PM
Be warned indeed, the Karavan will be shown for the decietful, vile creatures they are. If this association is so loose, and the Karavan are against the goo, then why are they not taking action about those protecting it in their name?

raynes
February 2nd, 2005, 10:43 PM
*stumbles out of the green mist*
*drools and mumbles something about gooooo*
*falls down*
.....

*hours later wakes up, looks around and finds some goo infested weed*
*rolls a goodoobie*
*smokes it and blows out green mist*

*drools*

*passes out dreaming of goo*


Ummm Goo is purple.

zumwalt
February 2nd, 2005, 11:12 PM
/ooc like someone high on goo is going to notice

vinnyq
February 3rd, 2005, 12:30 AM
I am so conflicted.

I am by birthplace and association a Kami follower ...

but I have fallen in love with Jena.

Lords help me!

- Fyrx

madnak
February 3rd, 2005, 01:43 AM
You don't have to choose, Fyrx. Simply follow Jena. You don't need to realize the Kami are misguided to recognize Jena's divinity. The Karavan are not defined by their hatred of the Kami, but by their wisdom and benevolence. Simply follow the principles of Jena and she will understand, even if you don't throw your support to the Karavan.

One day the Kami will be exposed and you will have no more question.

Liquado, I'm sorry to see that you have fallen so far so fast. You don't even remember the ideal of unity which, though foolish when applied to the Kami, was admirable. And now you listen to their lies. I'll have you know I have personally cleaned goo away from the land in service of the Karavan - they are very active in preserving the planet. Even in Verdant Heights, where the goo is a minor threat.

ackir
February 3rd, 2005, 04:22 AM
Saiwin, please stop spreading the Karavan's misguided propoganda. I am sure you have more intelligence than to buy the lines they spit at you. The Karavan are enemies of the Goo, but not because they care about the irrepairable harm it does to Atys' plant life and creatures (including homins). They are "enemies" because they have realised that it affects the resources which they covet. Even then, not full enemies because they offer allegiance to those who worship the Goo.

I shudder to think of what my homeland would be like without what you call "militaristic extremism" because the only other option besides combating the Goo is to not fight it and hope it doesn't envelop the land. Only by the sword, pick and flame is the Goo kept along the borders of the Witherings.

You don't have to choose, Fyrx. Simply follow Jena.

That is exactly what the Karavan want: don't think about it, just do. They don't allow the instruction of homins in the art of reading/writing or the study of our past. It makes for more docile, unquestioning servants. The Karavan are neither wise or benevolent. They share nothing of their knowledge or technology, and they do not care for the future of Atys as they continue to exploit her riches. Also, the Karavan do not accept other "sects" in the following of Jena. This can clearly be seen by their treatment of the Guild of Elias, many of whom were burned for their belief.

Fyrx, I encourage you to consider the actions of both the Kami and the Karavan and make a choice for yourself along your own principles.

madnak
February 3rd, 2005, 06:15 AM
their treatment of the Guild of Elias, many of whom were burned for their belief.

Jinovitch burned them, not the Karavan. Let's keep to the facts.

Fyrx, I encourage you to consider the actions of both the Kami and the Karavan and make a choice for yourself along your own principles.

At least we agree on that.

ackir
February 3rd, 2005, 09:20 AM
At least we agree on that.

Umm.... on what?

First you say: don't choose, just do what I say. Then you agree with: choose for yourself...? I see two conflicting statements there... unless you mean you agree with having a choice as long as it is what you would agree with (i.e. Karavan). If that is the case then you confirm my above point, thank you kindly.

sk8rss
February 3rd, 2005, 04:55 PM
Liquado, I'm sorry to see that you have fallen so far so fast. You don't even remember the ideal of unity which, though foolish when applied to the Kami, was admirable. And now you listen to their lies. I'll have you know I have personally cleaned goo away from the land in service of the Karavan - they are very active in preserving the planet. Even in Verdant Heights, where the goo is a minor threat.

Unfortunately this ideal was flawed from the start. As a unity-minded individual, not trying to lean towards either side, I noticed that the Karavan are incapable of this. I was pronounced foolish by your people, why supported by the Kami followers. I wanted also, at first, to ignore the fact that the Karavan are nothing like what they claim. I do not doubt that Jena is a benevolent godess, and that what she does is good, I doubt your true allegience with her. You're being mislead my friend, and it's time to come home. The Kami are not only of this planet, but also part of it, if Karavan intentions were good wouldn't they embrace assistance from the Karavan? It seems the Karavan have come here and immediately intended upon opposing the Kami, and they encourage the hasty, greedy destruction of our planet instead of resource management. I am sorry, but I cannot agree with these actions that rape my HOME of its life. I have faith in the Kami, and their ability to see through the Karavan lies even better than I do. Please my friend, try it once, turn away from the lies, contact me and we'll get together and I'll show you the true way. You needn't fear the Kami, but embrace them.

vinnyq
February 3rd, 2005, 05:10 PM
but didn't the Kami and the Karavan both helped us homins in our dark time, where we faced xenocide from the Kitins?

Anyhow, I guess it would be wrong of me to base my alliances on beauty alone (lord knows the Kami aint that pretty!), but then again ... your heart can't tell you wrong, can it?

madnak
February 3rd, 2005, 06:34 PM
To avoid declaring for either group is still a choice. I'm just suggesting there are more than two choices to make. He doesn't have to abandon his home or Jena. I agree that he should act according to his principles.

The Kami oppose the Karavan, who represent Jena. Therefore they are my enemies. I would be happy if the Kami embraced Jena. But they declared Jena a false god, Usurper of Ma'Duk. I think they want to control or destroy the homins; they see us as a plague on their lands. I think they want us alive to stop the kitin and the Karavan, and then they will attack us.

At least we can all agree that the kitin must be stopped.

asaseth
February 3rd, 2005, 10:16 PM
Does that not also mean that the Karavan might also be misleading us? They teach of Jena, and they are good teachings, but they say they are representitives of Jena. We have no more proof that they are representatives of Jena than we do that the Kami are waiting for us to wipe the scourge of the Kittin from our lands forever, before turning on us homin. The pritty words are just that. There actions, however...

<Noh, Zorai>
<2 different players on this one account>

jgi47ak
February 8th, 2005, 01:46 AM
The Karavan seek to protect all homins and care for homins for they themselves are of homin form. Karavan followers such as the Matis promote science which the Kami have tried to interfere with. Kami promotes thought only as long as it promotes their unknown agenda. These demon Kami can not be trusted. The Kami accuse the Karavan of not sharing technology. If one would stop and think for a minute, one would realize that Karavan technology and crafting is dependent on metels which so far have not been found on Atys. The Karavan have also proven their wisdom. Did they not advise homins to stay out of the prime roots? Was it not the Fyros who ignored such wisdom and provoked the kitin? The Karavan do promote science but also demand that homins pay heed to their wisdom. As for Karavan benevolence, I have personally seen Karavan gaurdians fight the Kitin in the nexus where I did earn the title of Karavan Champion for my help in protecting all homins. The strange Karavan weapons did tear through the kitin faster than my own Matisian launcher.

The Kami use the politics of fear to trick homins to wage war on homins. Fear denies faith. I have faith in the Karavan who have proven beyond all doubt that they will protect homins. I do not know what the Kami are and I do not need to know. I do not know what thier agenda is and I do not need to know. I do not know why they are opposed to Matis science and I do not need to know. I do not know why anyone would worship these inhomin things and I do not need to know. I do know that any homin who would attack the followers of the Karavan is an enemy of all homins and must be destroyed.
_______________
Ivarion
Gladius Jenae

asaseth
February 8th, 2005, 11:12 PM
The Karavan seek to protect all homins and care for homins for they themselves are of homin form.
...
These demon Kami can not be trusted.
...
The Kami use the politics of fear to trick homins to wage war on homins.
...
I do not know why anyone would worship these inhomin things and I do not need to know. The Karavan maybie of homin form, but so are the Kami. Seeing as how I have yet to see any Kami attacking a homin, I doubt that they could be classified as demons. You confuse the Kami with certain disagreeable Kami-suporting homin. The Kami themselves I have yet to hear a truely fear-inspireing thing, although the bit about how the Karavan technology causes harm to the plants that we depend on for life is a bit troubling. And finaly, the Kami are not inhomin. Just as there are many forms of homin, there are many forms of Kami. Do they not still walk uppon two legs? Do they not still have two arms? Are they incapeable of speach, like the Gingo or the Mektoub? No. They may be a little odd looking sometimes, but then again, since they are closer to magic than any of the four tribes, that is to be expected. You don't exactly see me running around, saying Tryker are inhomin, simply because they are shorter than my people, nor do you see me calling Matisans inhomin, simply because their skin is not blue like my peoples. So what makes the Kami different?

Karavan followers such as the Matis promote science which the Kami have tried to interfere with. Kami promotes thought only as long as it promotes their unknown agenda.
...
The Kami accuse the Karavan of not sharing technology. If one would stop and think for a minute, one would realize that Karavan technology and crafting is dependent on metels which so far have not been found on Atys.
...
The Karavan do promote science but also demand that homins pay heed to their wisdom.
...
I do not know why they are opposed to Matis science and I do not need to know. Again, it is not the Kami that accuse the Karavan of not shairing their crafting secrets, but some Kami-followers. Learning to differentuate between the two is a very important step to proper learning. As for being opposed to Matis 'science', it realy depends on what you are talking about. The matis 'science' that is similar to that of the Tryker, the Fyros, and the Zorai is accepted with no problem. When you bring in 'science' that is based on Karavan crafting, that is when the Kami have problems. Was there realy all that need to force Atys to create a wall for your defense? Every land has it's own natural defenses already in place. If you had just worked with them, instead of forceing into an unnatural shape, there would have been no problem. Since the Karavan 'science' is based on different materials, which probably need to be forced to conform, why use it here, where there is no need? As for the promoting thought only so long as it follows their master plan, the Karavan can be accused of the same thing. You, yourself admitted that the Karavan demand that one heeds their wisdom. And what do the Kami do? They let you make your own mistakes, all the while watching you to make shure that you don't grevously hurt yourself, like a parent. How is that only promoting the way of thinking that follows their 'master plan'?

And finaly, I do know that any homin who would attack the followers of the Karavan is an enemy of all homins and must be destroyed.

No, this is homin is an enimy of the followers of the Karavan. Not all homin bend their knee to the Karavan, so saying that an enimy of the Karavan is the enimy of all is blatantly false. Now, if they attack Karavan-alligned and Kami-alligned alike, like the Kittin do, THEN they are the enimy of all homin-kind. But if they only attack Karavan, then they are only the enimy of the Karavan.

Noh
A humble Zorai

nekakt
February 11th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Fyros Brothers and Sisters of the Kami
The Karavan seem to be making Our Desert a comforable visiting area. Every day i see more and more of the Karavan taint seeping into our homeland a Karavan ship has even landed in our dunes offering quick teleport pacts for the tainted to invade our lands! Brothers and Sisters it is under a KM from our City of Thesos do not think this is a hand of peace. The Karavan are deceptive and will wait for the strong to turn their backs on them to slide the dagger into our backs.

The Gaurdian
Cerberous

josephm
February 12th, 2005, 02:53 AM
The Karavan and their followers are sheep. They are thusly named. What do they follow? Only those aligned with the Karavan know. The rest of us have real concerns like the goo and the well being of our fellows and world to attend to. I'd smash their followers to bits but that'd be like picking off the Yubolings following their scampering mother to hide from the rain. It's the head I want. The head of the Karavan!

sk8rss
February 14th, 2005, 07:20 PM
The Karavan ARE but sheep. And these sheep are ready for the slaughter.

raynes
February 14th, 2005, 08:50 PM
The Karavan and their followers are sheep. They are thusly named. What do they follow? Only those aligned with the Karavan know.

And from the meeting the other day, not even the followers know what they follow!

ackir
February 14th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Deaf and blinded sheep, then!

I need a new coat, its winter again...

asaseth
February 15th, 2005, 12:00 AM
*Noh shakes his head.*

I perfer to fight with thought, not swords. I'll let you beat the drums.


Although, I have herd something interesting lately. Is it true that there is Karavan teleport ships in the Prime Roots? If they say that Jena tells us to stay out of the Prime Roots, then why are the teleport ships there? Don't you think that it throws into doubt the fact that they are Jena's voice, if they either go aganst Jena's word, or make rules up, and not only don't expect their folowers to obey them, but don't obey them themselves?


<Noh - Zorai>

sk8rss
February 15th, 2005, 03:41 PM
*Noh shakes his head.*

I perfer to fight with thought, not swords. I'll let you beat the drums.


Although, I have herd something interesting lately. Is it true that there is Karavan teleport ships in the Prime Roots? If they say that Jena tells us to stay out of the Prime Roots, then why are the teleport ships there? Don't you think that it throws into doubt the fact that they are Jena's voice, if they either go aganst Jena's word, or make rules up, and not only don't expect their folowers to obey them, but don't obey them themselves?


<Noh - Zorai>

Thought's no fun, get beating fellas!

There are plenty of Karavan Teleporter ships in the PR. They've been there since I took a trip through the undersprings, many, many months ago.

madnak
February 15th, 2005, 07:42 PM
The Karavan know what they're doing. We don't. Trust me, no Karavan will wake the Dragon. We homins have already shown what happens when we ignore their warnings. The Karavan risked their own lives to save us from the kitin - even though the kitin are here purely because we disregarded their wisdom.

But the Karavan don't stomp around digging up monsters. They are careful and they have knowledge that far exceeds our own. They know the risks of the Great Dragon better than anyone. And they themselves would perish if they were to awaken it. So yes, I can trust that the Karavan have reason to be in the roots.

bobturke
February 16th, 2005, 01:12 AM
The silent majority do not all see this as Kami vs Karavan, black vs white. We have struggled to return to these lands and now we struggle to rebuild and repel the kitin invaders. Tryker society, and I know the others are the same, is just starting to regain its feet. The merchants are just begining to re-establish trade routes to the other lands. We haven't even started on the outposts of old. Many homin have families to think of and homes to defend. Are the Kami or Karavan threatening to destroy my house? No! So far only the kitin kin have dared this.

Why should we start another war when the dust is still settling on the last?

sk8rss
February 17th, 2005, 02:54 PM
No one's trying to start a war, it's already been started. Had the Karavan never come to our planet and tried to defy the Kami none of this conflict would have ever taken place. Remove the Karavan and we remove the struggle.

On another note, this silent majority should speak up. Don't be afraid of the more outspoken ones of us. We'll hear your point. You're probably wrong, but we'll hear it. You are more misguided than the karavan followers, at least THEY realize what's happening between us. But let yourselves be known so we can help you come to the light that is the Kami.

ackir
February 17th, 2005, 04:09 PM
If they spoke out, they would no longer be silent :P

bobturke, you cannot speak for the 'silent majority'... sorry.

bobturke
February 22nd, 2005, 03:06 AM
On another note, this silent majority should speak up. Don't be afraid of the more outspoken ones of us. We'll hear your point. You're probably wrong, but we'll hear it. You are more misguided than the karavan followers, at least THEY realize what's happening between us. But let yourselves be known so we can help you come to the light that is the Kami.

Thus they will remain the silent majority.

sk8rss
February 22nd, 2005, 06:30 AM
Thus they will remain the silent majority.

Hey, it's really not my fault they don't have the sap to stick up for themselves. Enjoy your weak silence, may your voice never be heard.

jagroq
February 23rd, 2005, 02:37 PM
As one who has not yet spoken up on this subject, I may be considered a member this silent majority you have called out. I have to say I agree with bobturke I think it is more important that we rebuild our homes and cities before starting a jihad over which of the seemingly benevelent groups to follow.

Also I would like to state that, while i an a defacto supported on the Karavan because I am Matis born, I would just as gladly support the Kami if the situation is diffrent. I don't need faith in either group. They are not gods they are but mortal beings. Mortal beings that are offering me help to realize my goals of rebuilding sociaty to the glory of all homins. To alienate either the Kami or the Karavan or for that matter any homin (not spouting religious retoric) would make ME the true enemy my people and all homin kind. And possibly even a worse threat than the kiten

sk8rss
February 23rd, 2005, 09:38 PM
Well, unfortunately, like I said, I've got to show how mislead you are. The Kami and the Karavan openly dispute each other and want their followers to act against them. There is no in-between unless you follow neither and reject both. Good luck working that one out. However, if one side were to come to decide peace I think the Kami would be it, they're for the betterment of Atys, not rape of its fertile lands. This is what the Karavan support, and do not care about the planet at all.

raynes
February 23rd, 2005, 10:06 PM
For the Kami, according the the Mara fragments:
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_higher_kami_mara
Goals
- Oppose the Karavan


For the Karavan, according to the Flanagan Files:
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_higher_karavan_flanagan
Goals :
- Oppose the Kamis and prevent the worship of Elias Tryton from spreading


The issue is very black and white. The Karavan oppose the Kami. The Kami oppose the Karavan. Do you have to follow what the lore specifically says? No. But don't come complaining when I kill you in a PVP area because you are neutral. After all if you choose not to follow what the lore flat out says, I can choose not to follow what you flat out say.

bobturke
February 24th, 2005, 01:42 AM
The issue is very black and white.


Life is never black and white except when seen by homin at either extreme. I do not deny the lore says that the kami and karavan oppose each other. What I do deny is the need for all homin to take up arms against their fellow homin just because of their political beliefs and/or birth race. Where in the lore does it say this?

What is this PVP area you speak off? Is this a miliraty term?

raynes
February 24th, 2005, 04:42 AM
Life is never black and white except when seen by homin at either extreme. I do not deny the lore says that the kami and karavan oppose each other. What I do deny is the need for all homin to take up arms against their fellow homin just because of their political beliefs and/or birth race. Where in the lore does it say this?


Honor and truth say this. If you can not stand by those who you align yourself with, then you are weaker than the common yubo.

bobturke
February 24th, 2005, 05:42 AM
Honor and truth say this. If you can not stand by those who you align yourself with, then you are weaker than the common yubo.

Very true. Which returns to my original point. There are many who do not choose to align themselves with either the Kami or the Karavan. We choose to align ourselves with all who would fight the Kitin. I fight beside those who fight against the Kitin, regardless of who they may be. There are many, including myself, who believe the Kitin are the enemy, not the Kami or Karavan. And I am yet to hear a convincing argument why this should change.

raynes
February 24th, 2005, 07:38 AM
Very true. Which returns to my original point. There are many who do not choose to align themselves with either the Kami or the Karavan. We choose to align ourselves with all who would fight the Kitin. I fight beside those who fight against the Kitin, regardless of who they may be. There are many, including myself, who believe the Kitin are the enemy, not the Kami or Karavan. And I am yet to hear a convincing argument why this should change.

Do those many that you refer to do tasks at the request of the Karavan or the Kami? Do they spend more time helping the Karavan than the Kami? No matter what the excuse, if a homin is viewed in a good light by either the Karavan or the Kami, then they support that group. No one is forcing them to help either group.

To put it simply if you are helping the Karavan by doing tasks for them, then you are helping the enemy of the Kami and therefore are an enemy of the Kami.

bobturke
February 24th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Do those many that you refer to do tasks at the request of the Karavan or the Kami? Do they spend more time helping the Karavan than the Kami? No matter what the excuse, if a homin is viewed in a good light by either the Karavan or the Kami, then they support that group. No one is forcing them to help either group.


Heh heh heh :) So because I do tasks for both the Kami and the Karavan I am allowed to support them both? As I mentioned before I don't really have a preference for either.


To put it simply if you are helping the Karavan by doing tasks for them, then you are helping the enemy of the Kami and therefore are an enemy of the Kami.

Does this extend to the reverse situation? If I do tasks for the Kami I am a friend of the Kami? If so and I help both am I the enemy of both or the friend of both. [*Turke thinks to himself, "i'm sure he's going to say the former"*]

This black and white world is more confusing than it looks.

raynes
February 24th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Heh heh heh :) So because I do tasks for both the Kami and the Karavan I am allowed to support them both? As I mentioned before I don't really have a preference for either.

Does this extend to the reverse situation? If I do tasks for the Kami I am a friend of the Kami? If so and I help both am I the enemy of both or the friend of both. [*Turke thinks to himself, "i'm sure he's going to say the former"*]

This black and white world is more confusing than it looks.

If you are doing tasks for both you are walking a very dangerious line. Neither the Karavan or the Kami are going to look kindly upon any homin working against them. While both the Kami and the Karavan are quiet now, that will not always be the case. And when they start to speak up those who have been faithful will be rewarded, while those who have worked against them will be punished.

jagroq
February 25th, 2005, 04:44 AM
The issue is very black and white. The Karavan oppose the Kami. The Kami oppose the Karavan. Do you have to follow what the lore specifically says? No. But don't come complaining when I kill you in a PVP area because you are neutral. After all if you choose not to follow what the lore flat out says, I can choose not to follow what you flat out say.


So now you are saying that you don't care what my beliefs are unless they match yours perfectly?! You don't hold any value in homid life unless it is in blind servitude to the kami?! Your mind has become so closed to original thought that you need to lash out at your perseved enemies because you fear that their very existance will poke a hole in the dream world you have constructed for yourself?!

You keep talking about leading me and others like me (those not fortunate enough to have your great wisdom about how the world works) towards the "light" that is the Kami, but your words here today have shown me what that light truely is. A burning fire that is set ignite all of Atys in war. While I am still to fuzzy on the Karavan's values or goals to follow them as blindly as you follow the Kami, I do thank you for bringing the Kami into perfect focus.

PS. That same lore you were quick to point to mentions something you forgot to consider. To both the Kami and the Karavan the Goo is a threat that by far eclipses any worries they have about each other. A few days ago I suggested that we put aside our diffrences and work together on that common goal. I still plan on fighting against the Goo and the Kitin threat but, I want it to be clear that with your help the Kami have lost any hope of converting me into one of their sheep and if any thing they and their followers have gained a new enemy.

ackir
February 25th, 2005, 08:58 AM
To both the Kami and the Karavan the Goo is a threat that by far eclipses any worries they have about each other.

First off, that is wrong. If you read the Flanagan Files you will find that the destabilizing factors for the Karavan have a different emphasis than those of the Kami in the Mara Fragments.

- Kamis represent serious rivals. Not only do they rally many homins to their cause to the detriment of the Karavan, but they are also resistant to the latter's technology. The Kamis also prevent them from setting up base camps on Atys.
- The Goo is a blight on the face of the planet and threatens to weaken natural resources.
- Elias Tryton, who first appeared during the darkest hours of the Kitin invasion, could well turn many homins away from the Jena faith.
- Homin curiosity about the past. This leads many homins to doubt the pillars of the Karavan and was the reason behind major disasters, such as the fire of Coriolis and the war against the kitins.

- The Goo represents the greatest threat for the Kamis. The Goo is a cancer that nibbles away at the planet, against which the Kamis are powerless.
- The Karavan represents a minor menace for them. The magnetic fields that their technology and machinery emit perturb plant life. Furthermore, years of Karavan gathering resources thanks to links with homins is beginning to wear down the planet's natural reserves.
- Overexploitation of natural vegetal plant resources will jeopardize the balance of the planet.

I bolded the sections of interest. The Goo is not a large threat to the Karavan, it only has the potential to disrupt the quality and supply of Atys' natural resources. Even then, this is not a strong conviction (Which is evident based on their previous actions against the Zorai).

...Karavan tries to punish Zorais for fighting goo instead of gathering raw materials for them.

I will leave your "questions" which were directed at Raynes for him to answer. As to your other claim of being "pushed away" from ever becomming a Kami "sheep"... If the actions or thoughts of one homin can so guide your actions and thoughts, then you are already a sheep and do not possess the ability to appreciate the Kami for yourself in your own way. The Karavan would gladly welcome such a follower, I hope you can find peace with your apparant insecurity. Your "de facto" support for the Karavan has already built-up a fear (and consequently, hatred) of the Kami. Many homins had a choice, clearly you did not. For that, I pity you. There is still hope that you may judge your beliefs on their own merits, but it is unlikely with you being so far indoctrinated into the Karavan's brainwashing. No doubt, you will respond the above statements with indignation or resentment and will continue to stray from seeing the truth.

jagroq
February 25th, 2005, 01:20 PM
I will leave your "questions" which were directed at Raynes for him to answer. As to your other claim of being "pushed away" from ever becomming a Kami "sheep"... If the actions or thoughts of one homin can so guide your actions and thoughts, then you are already a sheep and do not possess the ability to appreciate the Kami for yourself in your own way. The Karavan would gladly welcome such a follower, I hope you can find peace with your apparant insecurity. Your "de facto" support for the Karavan has already built-up a fear (and consequently, hatred) of the Kami. Many homins had a choice, clearly you did not. For that, I pity you. There is still hope that you may judge your beliefs on their own merits, but it is unlikely with you being so far indoctrinated into the Karavan's brainwashing. No doubt, you will respond the above statements with indignation or resentment and will continue to stray from seeing the truth.

I do apologize Ackir that I painted all followers of the Kami with the same brush. What I said earlier I did say in the heat of passion after recieving a direct threat on my life. I do understand that you have your beliefs and I have mine and there is no reason that they agree. I guess I just didn't apreciate having the olive brach I tried to offer shoved down me throat.

raynes
February 25th, 2005, 03:02 PM
So now you are saying that you don't care what my beliefs are unless they match yours perfectly?! You don't hold any value in homid life unless it is in blind servitude to the kami?! Your mind has become so closed to original thought that you need to lash out at your perseved enemies because you fear that their very existance will poke a hole in the dream world you have constructed for yourself?!

You keep talking about leading me and others like me (those not fortunate enough to have your great wisdom about how the world works) towards the "light" that is the Kami, but your words here today have shown me what that light truely is. A burning fire that is set ignite all of Atys in war. While I am still to fuzzy on the Karavan's values or goals to follow them as blindly as you follow the Kami, I do thank you for bringing the Kami into perfect focus.

PS. That same lore you were quick to point to mentions something you forgot to consider. To both the Kami and the Karavan the Goo is a threat that by far eclipses any worries they have about each other. A few days ago I suggested that we put aside our diffrences and work together on that common goal. I still plan on fighting against the Goo and the Kitin threat but, I want it to be clear that with your help the Kami have lost any hope of converting me into one of their sheep and if any thing they and their followers have gained a new enemy.

Any Homin that does not serve the Kami is indeed my enemy. The way of the Kami is the only way. You have spent time helping the Karavan, that in my view is the worst crime above any.

I have to laugh at the part where you tell me its my fault that you won't be converted into a Kami follower. The fact is that you wouldn't of become one anyway. If you are helping the Karavan then you obviously have no regard for Atys. I personally get tired of people using me as an excuse why they won't join the Kami. The Kami wish to save Atys. They are its guardians. The only reason why anyone should follow the Kami is because of their love for Atys. Unlike the Karavan they do not want people to join them just because they like them or have a desire to follow them. They want people to join them to help perserve the planet. The very fact that you have said that you won't join because of me tells me that even if you were to join, it wouldn't be for the right reasons.

It's really that simple. Either you love the planet and want to protect it, in which case you would join the Kami. Or you wish to be a slave to the Karavan and help them destroy the planet.

sk8rss
February 25th, 2005, 08:50 PM
I've been sitting back and watching for a short while too long. This debate is useless, those who support the Karavan, or even allow them to coexist with them, are not the kind of homins with our planet's best interest in mind. It is clear that these people are obviously the enemy, not because they've joined with the Karavan specifically, but more because they inherently, by either Karavan alignment or neutrality, are not concerned for the well being of our homes, and therefore represent the greatest threat to me.

zumwalt
February 25th, 2005, 09:20 PM
*through an observers eyes*

Kami followers are mining the grounds with such enthusiasm, as to make the kami tolerance bar go down..

Karavan followers are hunting the kitin and the kinchers to remove them from the lands..

Kami would not mine knowing that mining would harm the planet, instead they would rely on merchants.

Karavan rely on merchants and production to further there cause to destroy the kitin..

*scratches head*

Kami punish the Kami for harvesting to much material..
Kami punish the Karavan for harvesting to much material..

I see a trend there..

Kami want there cake and eat it to.
Karavan just want to defend Atys from the Goo and Kitin..

*shrugs*

I'll stick to my production and let the kami and karavan eliminate each other in this bickering, makes more room for me on Atys.

raynes
February 25th, 2005, 09:34 PM
*through an observers eyes*

Kami followers are mining the grounds with such enthusiasm, as to make the kami tolerance bar go down..

Karavan followers are hunting the kitin and the kinchers to remove them from the lands..

Kami would not mine knowing that mining would harm the planet, instead they would rely on merchants.

Karavan rely on merchants and production to further there cause to destroy the kitin..

*scratches head*

Kami punish the Kami for harvesting to much material..
Kami punish the Karavan for harvesting to much material..

I see a trend there..

Kami want there cake and eat it to.
Karavan just want to defend Atys from the Goo and Kitin..

*shrugs*

I'll stick to my production and let the kami and karavan eliminate each other in this bickering, makes more room for me on Atys.



What open Kami supporter harvests to the point of angering the Kami? Everytime I see the Kami bar low there are always Matis in the area.

The Kami are not against harvesting or mining. In fact they encourage it. What they are against and what causes them to get angry is when people mine to the point of when resources are almost completely removed from the planet. If a homin is wise and harvests in moderation the Kami will be perfectly happy.

The Kami need to protect Atys from being over mined/harvested. If they didn't stop homins when resources are at a dangerious level, the planet would become a useless wasteland.

ackir
February 25th, 2005, 11:16 PM
zumwalt...

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HE HE HE HEH HEH ha ha ha he he heh.

I hope you weren't being serious because that was too funny.

-----------------

I guess I just didn't apreciate having the olive brach I tried to offer shoved down me throat.

Yeah... I can see that... because saying that alienating "any homin" by following either the Kami or Karavan makes one worse than the kitin is an "olive branch (http://www.circusmalabaristas.co.uk/Graphics/Fire/fire1.jpg)". I guess I don't see it. Oh, by the way, olive branch is a symbol of peace where I come from, if it has a different meaning for you then I apologize.

To alienate either the Kami or the Karavan or for that matter any homin (not spouting religious retoric) would make ME the true enemy my people and all homin kind. And possibly even a worse threat than the kiten

Baaa, jagroq, baaa. (http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040823/images/sheep1.jpg)

zumwalt
March 1st, 2005, 07:26 PM
You don't see a Karavan or Kami title above my head.
I travel all the lands, modestly harvest what I need, not beyond my needs.
I defend all the lands from the Kitin, but avoid the termoil between the Kami and Karavan.

I observe both the Kami and Karavan aligned individuals who lack in knowledge of propper harvesting, blow them self up, or tear up a harvest.

I am also wittness to the greed of both sides, trying to harvest the lands until the Kami Brutes are agitated, then leave.

Sometimes, I believe these individuals do this just to reduce the time the lands can be harvested, but for no other reason.

This is my thoughts.

I am a dual harvestor / crafter, and craft items for all lands and homin, but am limited when I enter area's where desired resources are to be found, only to find that the kami tolerance is at an all time low, this in both Kami and Karavan lands.

Time is never on our side.