PDA

View Full Version : Role Play Conference


madnak
February 3rd, 2005, 06:36 AM
On Saturday, February 12th at 4:00pm EST there will be an out-of-character conference held on the hill in Majestic Garden when Perrako was wed, north of Yrkanis.

The goal of this meeting is to establish role play conventions and boundaries, to come to agreement on hazy aspects of the setting, and to get the RP community together all at once.

If you need transportation that can probably be arranged, let me know.

ackir
February 3rd, 2005, 09:24 AM
Come hell or high water (or a Kincher swarm... or all three), I will be there. I have been tossing the idea around myself, and think its great you took the initiative to do it. My in-game name is Maika.

turkka
February 3rd, 2005, 02:24 PM
Matis lands eh? Non exactly neutral territory dat est...


<shifts eyes>

zumwalt
February 3rd, 2005, 03:17 PM
Oh ye of little faith, how about we just do it in the Nexus this way if it gets out of hand we can have a brawl instead?

Saturdays and Sundays are family days, wife and kids come first, so I probably won't be there unfortunately.

turkka
February 3rd, 2005, 04:40 PM
Conference, brawl - what est difference? I concur about Nexus, Hoowah!

raynes
February 3rd, 2005, 05:10 PM
I think there needs to be clarifacation as to the purpose of this meeting. It's not a meeting of Kami loyalists, Karavan supporters, or any in game group. It's a meeting of players to discuss the roleplay issues in the game. Things like setting up events, rules and guidelines for roleplay, and how to get more people involved. This is a out of character meeting.

madnak
February 3rd, 2005, 05:58 PM
Matis is easier to reach than Nexus. I want this to be open to all, even the brand new players. And getting everyone to Nexus would be a nightmare.

brackish
February 3rd, 2005, 06:20 PM
Could we maybe make a list of items to be addressed? I think if you have actual items and questions to be answered you will have a more productive meeting.
Also, who will directing this meeting?

One thing i would like to see discussed is maybe a way to get Neutral guilds involved more. Just an idea. Our guild really does not RP that much but if there is a reason to, other may be attracted to do so.

madnak
February 3rd, 2005, 10:56 PM
Well, I'd like it to be an open forum, so if there's something someone would like to discuss they can feel free. To that end there won't be a hard agenda.

I want to talk about:

Karavan, Kami, and neutral - what exactly it means to be put into one of these boxes, and what defines the factions other than the fact they're at each others' throats.

RP without factions - So far everything seems related to the factions. I want to see that change. As I see it, the Kami/Karavan disputes and the kitin threat are more of a backdrop for the real down-to-earth role play. I love having events and things related to those conflicts, but it seems like there's a real vacuum in terms of day-to-day stuff.

Because there's a major lack of content we have to come up with some things on our own. The religion and race pages are good places to start, but are very incomplete. Some things I really want to discuss: What does the karavan edict against the PR mean exactly? No entry at all? Try to stay out as much as possible? Only go down when you need to gather mats for the Karavan? Also, how do the Fyros and Zorai view Jena? How do the Matis and Tryker view Ma-Duk? How does life go on in Atys? What's a day in the life of a homin? What kinds of daily rituals do homins engage in?

We can improv a lot of this stuff, but it could get chaotic over time. I'd like to do some group brainstorming.

How can we get RP going? Let's think about it. Maybe we can set up certain areas that are unofficial "RP zones," there are lots of empty buildings and lonely hills around. How can the RP community get in touch with one another? How can we organize events efficiently? How can we encourage RP and recruit role players to Ryzom?

zumwalt
February 3rd, 2005, 11:12 PM
Please if you will, at the general meeting, ask that the guilds have a rep go to the guild section of the website and post an update to there guild information for me.

This way, when the meeting is over, anyone or any guild rather that is declaring its roleplay status can be updated, along with there web address for any player wishing to join them.

Although the meeting is about clerification, once this is done, posting the standings would help in the long run.

As it stands, faction based PvP is all we have, and according to the guild posted information, I am guessing that the Karavan would whipe the Kami clean in a RP stance of faction against faction minus Neutrals.

This needs some balance.

skbid
February 3rd, 2005, 11:24 PM
My thoughts on this meeting are that we should also have GM representation available. There have been some comments made about creating NPC's to play parts that are needed for the RP to continue such as King Yrkanis, etc. It would be nice to have some idea if this is a possibility or do we have to just create our own direction when this type situation is reached. As far as the 3 types of guilds (Kami-Neutral-Karavan) I think it would be better to expand that just a bit to include 3 variations of each.

Kami: Fanatic/Neutral/Tolerant
Neutral: Kami/Agnostic/Karavan
Karavan: Fanatic/Neutral/Tolerant
The reason I think we need to have 3 varieties of followers is to allow more interpretations of how people and guilds want to operate.

If you're a fantical player/guild you are staunchly behind your chosen entity.

If you're a Neutral player/guild you are able to see both sides of the picture and will make choices as you feel circumstances dictate not only your chosen entity's

If you're a Tolerant player/guild you are aware of the entity in your land and will sometimes follow their lead but you may go against them if you feel the other entity is more in line with your position depending on the circumstances.

These are just suggestions so don't shoot the messenger, just trying to get some ideas out there so you can have a more productive meeting.

I should be able to make the meeting barring any real life complications.
My in game identity is: Kruz - Eye Of Atys

brackish
February 3rd, 2005, 11:41 PM
If you're a Tolerant player/guild you are aware of the entity in your land and will sometimes follow their lead but you may go against them if you feel the other entity is more in line with your position depending on the circumstances.


Kruz, good post,
Though i disagree with the above.
If you would be, say Karavan Tolerant, i would think that you would follow the Karavan's principles and guidance but at times you may not. I dont think you would actually cross over the fence onto the other team. You may just in fact, decide to sit out that event, mission, or whatever it might be.
Everything else i agree with.

neiana
February 4th, 2005, 12:14 AM
I'll do what I can to attend, but make no promises. :( I believe there will be at least two members of KoK present if I'm not - and I'll be updated.

However, I will try hard to make it.

- N

oldmess
February 4th, 2005, 12:43 AM
Kami: Fanatic/Neutral/Tolerant
Neutral: Kami/Agnostic/Karavan
Karavan: Fanatic/Neutral/Tolerant


I want to second this general idea. The notion that a guild or even a person who follows Jena/Karavan teachings (for example) is therefore obligated to behave with absolute hatred/violence towards Kami worshippers is unrealistic. Even in real life, most religious people don't express that kind of animosity towards those of other religions. Some do, but most don't.

I could draw more specific parallels between Muslims and Christians, but I don't want to imply that we should model the conflict between Kami/Karavan on the real world (wouldn't it be nice if everyone that has died in our recent conflicts could be simply respawned).

My point is that I personally would enjoy roleplaying a character that is follows the Karavan point of view and will go so far as to defend other Karavan worshippers if attacked, but will not go out of his way to harrass, convert, insult or PvP a Kami worshipper.

I also like something that Saiwin said about trying to find other motivations for our roleplaying besides the Kami/Karavan conflict.

skbid
February 4th, 2005, 04:00 AM
Kruz, good post,
Though i disagree with the above.
If you would be, say Karavan Tolerant, i would think that you would follow the Karavan's principles and guidance but at times you may not. I dont think you would actually cross over the fence onto the other team. You may just in fact, decide to sit out that event, mission, or whatever it might be.
Everything else i agree with.


Thanx Brackish, I just thought that might be a good place to start. Like I said I hope it gives some ideas for discussion and hopefully lets those players and guilds that aren't actively RP'ing the idea that there is more room for interpretation than just strictly Kami or Karavan. I think that's why a lot are choosing the "Neutral" title because it's the only choice left besides the "Fanatical".

Kruz - EOA

eohlwyn
February 4th, 2005, 09:09 PM
((moved.....))

eohlwyn
February 4th, 2005, 09:14 PM
This is truely an excellent idea, and seeing how fresh and budding the roleplay scene is in this game, now is the time to do such conferences before ic rifts create ooc tension.

I for one will definitely try to be there on one of my matis-land alts, (that will totally need escort to find wherever the place is safely, heh.)

one thing to note however, while narrowing down certain cannon conventions of what defines the world of atys might help in getting people on the same page so to speak, it conversly also puts limits on roleplayer creativity than when conventions are more openly set to allow for story to evolve to whatever it will be.
people become attatched to such cannons like rules, and new roleplayers that have different ideas of what could be done in an environment suddenly get branded unacceptable. I have personally watched this sort of thing rabidly destroy extremely large formerly positive and bustling roleplay environments.

Might I suggest that rather than narrowing rules about in character feasabilities.. that you focus more upon out of character guidlines for respectful and flourishing roleplay.

some basic rules of respecting character, story, and shaking hands after duels/battles in an ooc manner go a long way to making the roleplay feel rich and positive as well as encouraging of each other's wild creativity and fun.

raynes
February 4th, 2005, 10:36 PM
I want to second this general idea. The notion that a guild or even a person who follows Jena/Karavan teachings (for example) is therefore obligated to behave with absolute hatred/violence towards Kami worshippers is unrealistic.


In terms of following the Karavan and behaving with "absolute hatred/violence towards Kami worshippers", you are correct you don't have to go around chopping off Kami followers heads. But if you are a Karavan follower you would not be friendly to the Kami worshippers. It just doesn't work that way.

Lets look at the Karavan and how they operate. First and foremost they are very strict about their rules and ideals. This is demonstrated by the fact that children are not taught to read and write. It's also demonstrated by the fact that Karavan followers are not allowed to study history. Even more to the point questioning anything relating to Jena or the Karavan is strictly forbidden.

Now having said that it's clear that the Karavan view the Kami as enemies. If you read the lore it states that the Kamis won't let them setup bases on the planet, they are resistant to their weapons, and they cause homins to turn away from Jena.

So to have a Karavan follower that doesn't view the Kami as the enemy just does not make sense in terms of how they have the religion setup. The Karavan see the Kami as a threat to their occupation on Atys. Which means the followers of the Karavan would also see that threat.

Furthermore if you were a Karavan follower and announced that you didn't see the Kami in the same light they did, you would be rejected by the Karavan. The reason for this is because if the Karavan feel one way about the Kami, and you feel another way that means you have to question what they teach. And as I said before questioning anything is forbidden.

If people think I am wrong, please show me lore that backs up your side of the arguement.

oldmess
February 4th, 2005, 11:20 PM
... But if you are a Karavan follower you would not be friendly to the Kami worshippers. It just doesn't work that way.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in Kami/Karavan lore. But just because the dogma of one religion says I can't be friendly to someone of the other religion doesn't mean I have to do it. Much of the dogma in real-life religions are much stricter than the majority of their worshipers actually practice.

The Catholic leadership says absolutely "no" to birth-control, but I'd be willing to bet that a significant percentage of Catholics use it anyway. Some Catholics will say that those "looser" Catholics aren't real Catholics at all. Those "looser" followers would disagree.

Why can't we, as role-players, make the same kinds of choices? Your character is taking a hard-line stance against the Karavan. And, like a hardline Catholic, your character doesn't believe that any proper Kami worshipper should be any different. That's totally consistent within itself and I respect that character's position. But, when we step out of character, why do the rest of the Kami worshippers have to be as hardline are yours? Why can't they have the same free will that we already exercise here on planet Earth?

raynes
February 5th, 2005, 12:23 AM
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in Kami/Karavan lore. But just because the dogma of one religion says I can't be friendly to someone of the other religion doesn't mean I have to do it. Much of the dogma in real-life religions are much stricter than the majority of their worshipers actually practice.

The Catholic leadership says absolutely "no" to birth-control, but I'd be willing to bet that a significant percentage of Catholics use it anyway. Some Catholics will say that those "looser" Catholics aren't real Catholics at all. Those "looser" followers would disagree.

Why can't we, as role-players, make the same kinds of choices? Your character is taking a hard-line stance against the Karavan. And, like a hardline Catholic, your character doesn't believe that any proper Kami worshipper should be any different. That's totally consistent within itself and I respect that character's position. But, when we step out of character, why do the rest of the Kami worshippers have to be as hardline are yours? Why can't they have the same free will that we already exercise here on planet Earth?

Kami followers and worshippers don't. I'm very extreme and there is nothing in the Kami religion that says a follower has to be. In fact they would probably hold the idea of being nice and recruiting homins away from the Karavan in higher regard, then be the extremist that I like playing.

When you follow the Kami, there are no rules or laws. There are guildlines, but no hard rules. The Karavan there is. As a Karavan you are expected to follow the laws of Jena. As a Kami supporter you are asked to take are of the planet.

To put it in real world terms. The Karavan would be like Orthodox Jewish People. Very strict with what they beleive. There is no questioning of the religious beliefs set forth before them, only the learning of them and strictly following them.

madnak
February 5th, 2005, 04:49 AM
Lets look at the Karavan and how they operate. First and foremost they are very strict about their rules and ideals. This is demonstrated by the fact that children are not taught to read and write. It's also demonstrated by the fact that Karavan followers are not allowed to study history. Even more to the point questioning anything relating to Jena or the Karavan is strictly forbidden.

Will you please support this? From reading the Flanagan Files I don't get this impression. I've read most of the lore on this site and I just don't see anything to support this. It sounds like you're combining a very particular interpretation of the Karavan with some of the ideals of the Matis and some of the laws of Jinovitch. If the Karavan were as you say, I couldn't see them allying with the Trykers of all people.

eohlwyn
February 5th, 2005, 05:02 AM
Will you please support this? ......... If the Karavan were as you say, I couldn't see them allying with the Trykers of all people.


This sort of debate over cannon is EXACTLY what I am referring to in my comment. The thing that people don't tend to get is that there doesn't have to be ONE interpretation of any cannon so long as all the roleplayers are reasonably accepting of everyone's ideas for what they are.

The key to creating a condusive positive and flourishing roleplay atmosphere and arena typically has nothing to do with the specs of what is right or not in a given world, but instead, what is right or not in the ooc community as far as how things are gone about, and what kind of ooc respect is given to each character, player, battle, etc.

raynes
February 5th, 2005, 05:43 AM
Will you please support this? From reading the Flanagan Files I don't get this impression. I've read most of the lore on this site and I just don't see anything to support this. It sounds like you're combining a very particular interpretation of the Karavan with some of the ideals of the Matis and some of the laws of Jinovitch. If the Karavan were as you say, I couldn't see them allying with the Trykers of all people.

Children are not taught to read and write:
" "Is it true that the Matis keep their lower castes from learning to read and write to more easily bend their minds to your laws?" popped Julea.

"It is the Law of Jena, but the answer is yes, one must first acquire the necessary training to affront the doubts of this world. Needless knowledge is a danger to the simple homin only leading to torment and misery and finally to perdition amidst the jaws of the dragon," replied Angeli. "
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_story_short6

It is against Jena's law to be curious of the past
"Homin curiosity about the past. This leads many homins to doubt the pillars of the Karavan and was the reason behind major disasters, such as the fire of Coriolis and the war against the kitins."
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_higher_karavan_flanagan

madnak
February 5th, 2005, 08:40 AM
That's Matis, not Karavan. The Matis and the Karavan are very different. While Matis doctrine claims the king speaks for Jena, it isn't true. It's the Matis aristocracy that you're talking about there. And they do teach children when they're "ready for it," (or born to the right parents).

As for curiosity about the past, that's not learning simple history (the historian Pergio Vasti who told of the siege of Karavia would be alarmed to learn that was the case). That's digging into things like who is Elias Tryton? Where did the Kami come from? Where were homins before they were on Atys? And I have a suspicion that some rites will eventually teach that knowledge. Here it's not an opposition to knowledge, but a desire to keep it out of common hands. Obviously the Karavan are opposed to alternative philosophies, which is understandable. That is still not a sure indictment of anyone who happens to have such a philosophy. The bible says that "thou shalt not steal," but that doesn't mean followers of Western religion hate thieves or kill them on sight. Only that they're doing something against that morality.

The Karavan also have relatively few rules. Don't go to the roots, don't pry into the past, don't worship anyone other than Jena, don't do missions for the Kami. That's about it.

They've allied with nondogmatic Trykers, and the very liberal King Yrkanis. I don't think the Karavan care whether their strictures are followed strictly and to the letter, and while some Karavan followers (Jinovitch, Aniro) believe that Karavan law should be enforced violently, many (Yrkanis, Matini Roqvini, Still Wyler, Yasson, Rigan Mac'Darell) clearly do not. Also plenty of the Karavan tribes don't follow all the rules. And even the matis who are so stuck-up and judgmental have officially allied with several Kami tribes.

I can see how you might possibly interpret the Karavan that way, Raynes, but I really don't think the lore supports your view.

madnak
February 5th, 2005, 08:53 AM
This sort of debate over cannon is EXACTLY what I am referring to in my comment. The thing that people don't tend to get is that there doesn't have to be ONE interpretation of any cannon so long as all the roleplayers are reasonably accepting of everyone's ideas for what they are.

I agree, but sometimes there has to be some common ground. Otherwise large-scale RP becomes impossible, because everyone has a different view of the "objective reality" of the game. We have to fill in that kind of thing because many details aren't provided by the lore, but if critical details contradict themselves from player to player, that can make it very hard to manage the situation.

That said, I do think "bending" here and there is a good (or even necessary) idea. For this particular scene we'll assume that redhot sap is a typical condiment, but maybe in another scene it's a drug or a medical salve or something else. On the other hand, if Raynes believes that the Karavan can't read and tries to use that to his advantage in a conflict, whereas I believe Karavan can read and so I ruin his attempt, that could be important and breed real hostility. I think things could unravel if we don't have some kind of OOC understanding regarding certain metagame elements. Especially where PvP is concerned, since the conflict isn't totally consensual.

sidusar
February 5th, 2005, 10:23 AM
They've allied with nondogmatic Trykers, and the very liberal King Yrkanis. I don't think the Karavan care whether their strictures are followed strictly and to the letter, and while some Karavan followers (Jinovitch, Aniro) believe that Karavan law should be enforced violently, many (Yrkanis, Matini Roqvini, Still Wyler, Yasson, Rigan Mac'Darell) clearly do not. Also plenty of the Karavan tribes don't follow all the rules. And even the matis who are so stuck-up and judgmental have officially allied with several Kami tribes.
I agree with this, and to provide some more lore to back it up; the Karavan have forbidden the Guild of Elias. But how do both of the Karavan-friendly governments react to this?
"The Yrkanis government, following Karavan Law, has banished the guild though in reality they turn a blind eye to be able to glean information to keep in control of the phenomenon."
"The Fairhaven government, following Karavan Law, has banished the guild for peace' sake though in reality they turn a blind eye to be able to leave the door ajar just in case Elias really is the Holy Father!"
While their official statements are that the Guild is forbidden, in reality they tolerate it. And the Karavan don't seem to have too much of a problem with this, since they haven't rejected the governments yet. So it's quite possible for Karavan followers to have the same attitude about the Kami and their followers, officially rejecting though in reality tolerating them.

raynes
February 5th, 2005, 05:08 PM
That's Matis, not Karavan. The Matis and the Karavan are very different. While Matis doctrine claims the king speaks for Jena, it isn't true. It's the Matis aristocracy that you're talking about there. And they do teach children when they're "ready for it," (or born to the right parents).

As for curiosity about the past, that's not learning simple history (the historian Pergio Vasti who told of the siege of Karavia would be alarmed to learn that was the case). That's digging into things like who is Elias Tryton? Where did the Kami come from? Where were homins before they were on Atys? And I have a suspicion that some rites will eventually teach that knowledge. Here it's not an opposition to knowledge, but a desire to keep it out of common hands. Obviously the Karavan are opposed to alternative philosophies, which is understandable. That is still not a sure indictment of anyone who happens to have such a philosophy. The bible says that "thou shalt not steal," but that doesn't mean followers of Western religion hate thieves or kill them on sight. Only that they're doing something against that morality.

The Karavan also have relatively few rules. Don't go to the roots, don't pry into the past, don't worship anyone other than Jena, don't do missions for the Kami. That's about it.

They've allied with nondogmatic Trykers, and the very liberal King Yrkanis. I don't think the Karavan care whether their strictures are followed strictly and to the letter, and while some Karavan followers (Jinovitch, Aniro) believe that Karavan law should be enforced violently, many (Yrkanis, Matini Roqvini, Still Wyler, Yasson, Rigan Mac'Darell) clearly do not. Also plenty of the Karavan tribes don't follow all the rules. And even the matis who are so stuck-up and judgmental have officially allied with several Kami tribes.

I can see how you might possibly interpret the Karavan that way, Raynes, but I really don't think the lore supports your view.

Which Kami tribes have the Matis officially alligned themselves with? Just because there are Kami tribes in Matis lands does not meant they are alligned with the Matis. Please list who you are reffering to.


Now, gow can you say what I post is Matis and not Karavan. The comment about the past was directly from the flannigan files. The other is a law of Jena. The laws of Jena which are Karavan made laws.

Showing you even more to support my statement:
Tryker Prohibitions:
- Never breach the Law of Jena.
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_tryker_being

If you read all of the sort stories and other lore that involves the Karavan and Karavan alligned races there is one theme that pops out, The urgent need to strictly follow the laws of Jena. It is what both the Tryker and Matis include as a central part of their belief systems. This includes things like questioning history, learning to read and write when one is young, approaching a Kami, doing missions or tasks for the Kami.

Also you can tell the Karavan are very structured and strict about their religion by the words used in the things written about them. Words like laws, worship, and infidel. None of these types of words are found when speaking about the Kami. The language used to talk about the Karavan is always a very harsh. Nothing written about the Kami has that same feel to it. Look at the titles of the two last paragraphs in high power sections on the front page:

The Mara Fragments: Legend
The Flanagan Files: The Prophecy

The Mara Fragments: What they can provide for homins
The Flanagan Files: What they promise their loyal friends

Learning about the lore is not a matter of reading sentences and learning what they say. It's a matter of reading things written about them and observing they style they are written with. It's about learning the overall tone of what is being said. With the Karavan the tone is one of following strict rules, never going against Jena, the need to consantly strive to please Jena and the Karavan.

If you still feel I am wrong, please explain to me the overall tone you get when reading about the Karavan.

thanakar
February 5th, 2005, 05:35 PM
Raynes, how many different interpretations are there of The Bible? How many different religions have arisen over that one book. Lore is like that, what you get from it won't be the same as the person next to you. Plain and simple.

oldmess
February 5th, 2005, 05:50 PM
When you follow the Kami, there are no rules or laws. There are guildlines, but no hard rules. The Karavan there is. As a Karavan you are expected to follow the laws of Jena. As a Kami supporter you are asked to take care of the planet.

When I go back and re-read the general descriptions of the Matis vs. the Tryker, I can see more of what you are saying in the Matis description. But even though the Tryker venerates Jena, their feelings toward the Karavan seems to have a small rebellious streak.

http://ryzom.com/index.php?page=lore_races_tryker_being

Oh, and by the way, keep it under your bonnet but some say that Elias is none other than the husband of Jena, which makes him the holy Father, but don't mention it to the Karavan!

And, when I look at the section listed What we value most?, I see this:

To be a true Tryker, you gotta live by the virtues of freedom, equality and sharing :
- Freedom : Consider all homins responsible and free of their acts. Any homin violating the freedom of another will be in breach of the Homin Rights Act, which as it happens, was first drawn up by the Tryker Council.
- Equality : Every homin has an equal right to walk the land, to obtain instruction, to harvest the natural resources, to choose their own destiny, as long as they don't encroach on other homin rights.
- Sharing : We believe that our force lies in our solidarity and that solidarity is borne from sharing. If we could persuade all Jena's children to be like us Trykers the world would be a safer place!

Freedom, equality and sharing. Not exactly the words of someone that will exclude another for his/her beliefs. It doesn't say "every Jena worshipper", it says "every homin". True, there's a hint of evangalizing in the last sentence, but that seems more inclusionary than not.

While others may wish to roleplay their characters differently than mine (and I respect that), those three words are the key to how I wish to roleplay mine. They are at the heart of why I chose that race to begin with.

madnak
February 5th, 2005, 06:51 PM
Which Kami tribes have the Matis officially alligned themselves with? Just because there are Kami tribes in Matis lands does not meant they are alligned with the Matis. Please list who you are reffering to.

From http://ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_matis_being: The Frahar Hunters, the Icon Worshipers, and the Hamazans of the Dead Seed are Matis allies.

Now, gow can you say what I post is Matis and not Karavan. The comment about the past was directly from the flannigan files. The other is a law of Jena. The laws of Jena which are Karavan made laws.

The question is how the law is enforced. I haven't seen anything to imply that Karavan followers can't befriend those who break the law. Also the fact that the Matis claim it's a universal Karavan law doesn't make it so. It seems likely to me that the Matis use Jena as a tool to keep their class heirarchy stable.

As for the rest, I get the tone of a strict morality that isn't strictly enforced. It also isn't strictly defined anywhere, the Flanagan Files aren't extensive. The Matis seem very willing to slaughter the "infidels," but the Tryker seem less so. And Yrkanis and Yasson strike me as very tolerant. Also certain stories paint the Karavan in a different light - http://ryzom.com/?page=lore_story_short9.

I can respect your interpretation, it's an intepretation many Kami followers share in game I'm sure, but I believe I've justified my own interpretation (on which my character is based).

ackir
February 5th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Raynes, how many different interpretations are there of The Bible? How many different religions have arisen over that one book. Lore is like that, what you get from it won't be the same as the person next to you. Plain and simple.

You said it in your own post, when you have a majorly different interpretation of a doctrine you become your own seperate sect. Something we need to work out is if "Karavan follower" is like being a "Christian" (i.e. a broad term), or if it's more like being a "Catholic" (i.e. a follower of a specific doctrine with little room for personal interpretation).

I get the impression that the Karavan only allow discrepancies (like the Guild of Elias situation) because if they were to go down the righteous path they would probably alienate the inherently rebelious Tryker and perhaps the Matis, too. They can't afford to do that. One of the main reasons I follow the Kami is for that ability to interpret, the Karavan have a Law that their followers must live by. I don't see the ability to interpret or pick and choose the best parts. You want interpretation? Be a Kami follower. Otherwise... toe the line!

eohlwyn
February 5th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Raynes, how many different interpretations are there of The Bible? How many different religions have arisen over that one book. Lore is like that, what you get from it won't be the same as the person next to you. Plain and simple.

Ok, since no one is listening to the game newb, let me tell you all a little story.

Once upon a time in a galaxy far far away, there was a large and bustling roleplay scene that had been established over a whole year. Then one day, someone decided that people trying to roleplay "force" powers were bad, and against what "everyone" knows as standard Star Wars cannon, as there aren't supposed to be anyone with force powers but Luke the Emperor and Vader. So suddenly every Tom Dick and Skywalker who had been roleplaying thier characters happily with limited force awareness and abilities got branded as against cannon, and therefor "r/p powergamer cheaters". This naturally did not go over well with said characters who had for the large majority been acting responsibly and not stepping over bounds or on toes.

A great battle ensued.. people using any means of force abilities who had not gotten an actual jedi got flamed, and black listed. People began flinging insults at oppositional roleplayers as using "force faerie" powers to get out of situations, a rift expanded, trust was lost, and the constant flame wars on the boards destroyed many a character, chased large handfuls away from the game, and effectively put a total and complete halt to any positive roleplay on that server for months. To this day the remaining community has set constricting rules upon the use of "force powers" and actual jedi have even been forbidden from roleplay events because of the war that had been caused, OOC. The atmosphere is oppressive, and lacks freedom.

Trying to nail down a specific all encompassing cannon to roleplay by for any universe is like asking the entire world to live by the bible.

There will never be total agreement, and there will be wars as people get intensely into thier own concept of what it's supposed to be.

The constructive means for building a roleplay community is to work on OOC matters of respect, and OOC terms of what people can or cannot do, as well as how to handle ooc mistakes and arguments so that ALL sides and opinions are dealt with in a positive, and cooperative manner.

When dealing with a fictional universe, anything is possible. Some things may seem given, but creativity does not come with boundaries.
Any roleplay conventions need to encompass that, or else the community dooms itself down the line.

oldmess
February 6th, 2005, 01:45 AM
The constructive means for building a roleplay community is to work on OOC matters of respect, and OOC terms of what people can or cannot do, as well as how to handle ooc mistakes and arguments so that ALL sides and opinions are dealt with in a positive, and cooperative manner.

When dealing with a fictional universe, anything is possible. Some things may seem given, but creativity does not come with boundaries.
Any roleplay conventions need to encompass that, or else the community dooms itself down the line.

You've hit upon a key point in my mind. I totally respect that some characters are extremists and while my character disagrees with their characters, I personally believe that both types of characters have a place in this world. I'm hoping that out of this conference will come a framework that allows both types of characters to exist (even if they may be at odds).

I don't disagree that the worship of Jena is very law oriented (primarily because I don't pretend to have read as much of it as others have), but that is not inconsistent with the way real people worship their gods. Every religion has an ideal; within that, it has some people that try to live up to that ideal fanatically and others that simply try to live loosely within the general ideal. I believe that we need to encourage role players to embody all different kinds of characters, not just the most extreme examples.

On a related note, one of the things we need to be careful of is speaking in-character vs. out-of-character. It would easy to be offended if I thought that Raynes was telling me that I couldn't play a certain way. But if his character is telling my character how wrong he is, then I personally am not offended. It's the nature of his character to come off strongly.

One of the things that could be discussed at this conference is when should we mark our comments with <ic> or <ooc> and when should we assume a certain voice. This forum should probably be assumed <ic>, but this whole thread was started with an <ooc> point of view, so I've been speaking mostly <ooc>.

raynes
February 6th, 2005, 04:22 AM
You've hit upon a key point in my mind. I totally respect that some characters are extremists and while my character disagrees with their characters, I personally believe that both types of characters have a place in this world. I'm hoping that out of this conference will come a framework that allows both types of characters to exist (even if they may be at odds).

I don't disagree that the worship of Jena is very law oriented (primarily because I don't pretend to have read as much of it as others have), but that is not inconsistent with the way real people worship their gods. Every religion has an ideal; within that, it has some people that try to live up to that ideal fanatically and others that simply try to live loosely within the general ideal. I believe that we need to encourage role players to embody all different kinds of characters, not just the most extreme examples.

No one is saying that people have to play an extremist. The issue is that you have 2 defined religions. One is the Karavan. It is a strict religion with laws and obedience central to it's operation. The other is the Kami. It's a very opened ended religion where one of the benefits is the ability to intrepet the meaning of things. What is happening in game (and it bugs me and serveral people to death) is that you have people picking the strict and obiediant religion and saying there is no issue with them interpreting it. If you want to interpret things and have free thought about the religion, you would be playing a Kami supporter.

I'd also like to make a comment about the fact that Madnak is saying that I am getting the Karavan laws and structure mixed up with Matis laws and structure. Well that makes no difference in his case because he is a member of both the Matis Race and the Karavan. To try to argue that he is a Karavan following Matis that is allowed to interpert things is pretty much saying he isn't a Karavan Matis supporter. Even more to the point though is that the Matis laws and structure can not be different than the Karavan laws and structure, because that is what it is based from.

Right now it's becomming almost impossible to roleplay becuase many of us don't have a clue what people are roleplaying as. Take me for example. I play an extreme Kami supporter that hates the KAravan, dislikes most Trykers and Matis because they support the Karavan. Now when I go around in game many who are Karavan and hold Karavan titles aren't really Karavan supporters, but neutral. The ones that play a Karavan aren't really against the Kami or the Kami supporters, but tolerant of them. Many Matis are saying they don't have to follow the laws of the Karavan or Jena, that they can interpret things as they see fit. So if no one is following some basic guidelines setup by the lore, how the heck is anyone suppose to rp?

If nothing else becomes of this meeting we need to set some definations that can not be broken. If you play a Karavan supporter, what do you stand for, what does it mean? If you play a Kami supporter, what do you stand for, what does that mean? Many will say that the RL is not black and white, so why should this game be? It's simple, in order to play a game there has to be set rules, guidelines, and definitions. You can not play a game without them.

I'm sure everyone will agree that when you RP you are acting a part. Well how can you act a part if you have no clue what the basic story is and what the things in it mean? How can you act a part when you have no clue what an of the other actors play?

If we can't do that, then there really is no point in doing any sort of RP.

eohlwyn
February 6th, 2005, 06:33 AM
Right now it's becomming almost impossible to roleplay becuase many of us don't have a clue what people are roleplaying as. .........
If nothing else becomes of this meeting we need to set some definations that can not be broken. ........... It's simple, in order to play a game there has to be set rules, guidelines, and definitions. You can not play a game without them.
I'm sure everyone will agree that when you RP you are acting a part. Well how can you act a part if you have no clue what the basic story is and what the things in it mean? How can you act a part when you have no clue what an of the other actors play?
If we can't do that, then there really is no point in doing any sort of RP.

#1- Take a breath. Clearly you're more accustomed to scripted theater than improvisation. In scripted theater, boundaries are set, you know the full plot, and it's all well and good and tight rules are kept. In improv, more often than not, you're thrown into a scene not knowing more than just who you are, and being able to see the "set" around you.

Roleplay, when taken to an immersive environment such as an MMO is typically a full blown freeform stage for Improvisation.

This is not an easy environment for many people, and for someone new to roleplaying can be quite intimidating, but so long as people have a general feel of the cultures and assorted backgrounds, and have a secure idea of who they want their character to be, there should be no issue.

You play your character. You enter the world, and act, and react accordingly to thier beliefs, ideas, needs, and motivations. If you are a Kami cultist, you simply play a kami cultist. You don't need to know if X-matis is nuetral/jena lover/reformed kami follower etc, whatever to talk with them icly and find out, or even roleplay out a great argument or discussion. You, be your character. You, react as your character would to whatever it is they come across.

and, here's the key- you let the people you are roleplaying and reacting to know that OOC you are just playing, and ensure they are game and want to roleplay with you, be it argue, duel, or even simply hang out in the local pub.

Today I was out IC hunting around pyr, and we came across a great Mage of a clearly upper level. Our group of roleplayers all paused in awe and respect, and talked with him. Before long it was clear he was uncomfortable around the matis in our group, and preferred an od older dialect of Fyros speech. My character, who is forever on her quest for news of her brother, noted the more elder stance of the man and asked for any news. This guy, who OOC of course had no clue who her brother is/was, decided he had heard of him, but had no location to give. Only that her brother had done something nice for him, and he owed her recompense in respect for it. He made her a sword, in honor of this completely fictional deed.

I still have no clear clue what specific bent or background he was trying to play, but because we interacted IC I know he is likely of a more egocentric fyros clan, and one who prefers to revive the old ways of the lands, and doesn't trust Matis. What old ways of the lands? doesn't matter.

If he has a totally different idea of them than any other fyros out there, he still played them well and we had a cool bit of interaction IC.

And that's the point of good roleplay.

The minute you set down "rules that can't be broken" about anything in a creative manner, someone comes along and decides they wanna play thier character in a way that would break them, and it starts wars over something that should never be viewed half as tense.

as far as the basic story, a fast glance over the main website gives more than enough of the basics to set any roleplay environment with no need for more clarification, because our imaginations are what define the real story we live and play out. not a conference nor the game.

stop thinking inside your box of religious conventions, cannon and rules, and start thinking about the players and roleplayers who are all out there looking for a way in, waiting for that sign that says "go for it" to just start playing thier characters, so the real fun can begin.

Focus on the OOC respect, and the IC fun will flourish, without need for other tight rules of cannon or anything, really. People will play and roleplay it thier own way, and that's a GOOD thing.

ackir
February 6th, 2005, 07:11 AM
Eohlwyn, of course you are going to have to improvise when there is no set ending (as in the example you gave with your quest for your outcasted brother), but there is clearly a story here that has been set forth by the developers. They have a design plan for the story of hominkind. Right now, we are trying to secure our foothold in the Newfound Lands against the Kitins. All the while, homins are taking sides in conflict of philosophies. You can't have a nature-loving, interpretive Karavan follower be against a nature-loving, interpretive Kami follower.

The history of hominkind is rife with conflict between the races. Recently, with our emergence from the Prime Roots Sanctuary, the races have polarized with their belief in either the Kami or Karavan. As a player, you have four choices... don't involve yourself, straddle the fence and belong to nothing (losing legitimacy with those who stand for something), support the Karavan, or support the Kami. The difference between the last two is in their basic philosophies, not who or what they worship. Most players are smart enough to know that there isn't actually a Jena or Ma-Duk, despite how they might roleplay it.

How do you react to someone when they don't define themselves as something? We do need to know what people believe. The definitions provided by the lore are pretty clear. The Church of Jena isn't a buffet line of your favorite aspects, its a huge horsepill you have to take all at once. Hopefully people realise that, otherwise it will be impossible to RP when you have to ask everyone what they specifically believe in.

eohlwyn
February 6th, 2005, 09:49 AM
Eohlwyn, of course you are going to have to improvise when there is no set ending (as in the example you gave with your quest for your outcasted brother), but there is clearly a story here that has been set forth by the developers. They have a design plan for the story of hominkind. Right now, we are trying to secure our foothold in the Newfound Lands against the Kitins. All the while, homins are taking sides in conflict of philosophies. ................
How do you react to someone when they don't define themselves as something? .........otherwise it will be impossible to RP when you have to ask everyone what they specifically believe in.

From what I understand of the design plan that the developers have set and avertised as (honestly) one of the key selling points that got me into this game, the outcome while guided along an idea they're leading, is not set. It is effected in a real way by how we as players delve into the world and go at the tools they gave us to determine it, and the land battle against the kitin.

I about fell out of my chair last weekend when i realized the winning of that one event meant the devs physically added a new portal between lands. That's just.. well my jaw is still near the floor having come from a truely static world.

similarly, because there is no pre-determined outcome for how conflicts of philosophies will be resolved (outside of amber cubes in our day to day roleplay lives), we have the freedom to just, play things as we each see them, having read over what backgrounds we chose, and devoting time to creating a character we each individually chose to play.

as far as reacting to someone who has not defined themselves.. how do you respond to agnostics in real life? You simply treat them as any other person, or in game, as any other character, and allow your character to respond accordingly. does that mean that there will be these "nuetrals" and large grey areas that are hard for solid kami/karavan supporters to deal with in the roleplay arena? Yes. But I fail to see why that diversity and challenge is a negative thing.

I also don't understand why you believe you have to know what everyone believes in order to roleplay with them. Half the fun in roleplay is meeting people as your character goes along and discovering in game, in play what thier assorted story/beliefs are. If I knew off the bat that a certain homin was a obsessive cultist and not just some guy I happened to meet, I miss out on some cool in character discovery as to his and my own character, not to mention on what would happen if he discovered I was related to a follower of the opposite faction, or some such plot twist. It's fifty times more fun to learn one on one what each character believes, (and even for those in war mode, isn't it more fun to be roleplaying with a given person, then find yourself fighting them on the battle field on the opposite line!/gasp!..? It changes story, it makes it richer, than simply going "oh, matis= this or x-guild= that.")

I think the larger idea out here that people seem to be stuck on is that there's supposed to be some OVER-game you all are supposed to be following in story and plot, and that is simply not true, no matter what fictional universe you're set in.

The key word there being Fictional Universe.

If you limit yourselves and your roleplay to such a concept of "set beliefs" within any "cannon", you miss out on a scene that is free and fully able to evolve, the play becomes static, and you box off options down the line for freeform and improv to shape a truely dynamic tale of many homins.

Not to mention, no matter how you define those philosophies, you will always alienate someone from the scene by placing limits. With a roleplay scene this small and under developed yet, do you really want to start it off by turning anyone away due to differing ideas of cannon?

turkka
February 6th, 2005, 10:54 AM
(OOC)

I aggree with Eohlwyn's reasoning here.

I'm sure everyone will agree that when you RP you are acting a part. Well how can you act a part if you have no clue what the basic story is and what the things in it mean?
Maybe your part is clueless? Ignorant? Corrupted? Player can know much more than the character. And character can be wrong about things, on purpose. Divided loyalities, so many more layers than Kami vs. Karavan.
I would prefer relaxed roleplaying environment without rp-police. But discussing these things is a good thing.

ackir
February 6th, 2005, 01:47 PM
Eohlwyn, you seem to misunderstand what I am getting at. I am not trying to force anyone into labels. I love meeting new people and like each one's unique approach to storytelling. That is not the point of my argument.

I am saying that when a player labels their character as something (note: not me labelling them) and plays that way, there needs to be consistancy with the lore.

If the majority of roleplayers here really think that anyone should be able to be or do anything then I am changing my story to something like this:

A Zorai who claims allegience to the Kami. I worship Jena as a supreme being and also the leader of the Kitin. Elias Tryton and Ma-Duk are obviously her consort/manservants, all males are weak and inferior to females. I assist the Kitin in any way possible because I think homins are the true invaders, not the other way around. I wantonly go around slaying homins, it is the Will of Jena. Also, I manipulate nature in an attempt to spread the Goo because I see it as nature's way of fighting back the homin expansionism. And I commonly harvest areas to exhaustion simply to destroy the materials later, I believe overharvesting toughens the resiliance of nature. You will never find a more devout Kami follower than me though.

raynes
February 6th, 2005, 06:57 PM
#1- Take a breath. Clearly you're more accustomed to scripted theater than improvisation. In scripted theater, boundaries are set, you know the full plot, and it's all well and good and tight rules are kept. In improv, more often than not, you're thrown into a scene not knowing more than just who you are, and being able to see the "set" around you.

Roleplay, when taken to an immersive environment such as an MMO is typically a full blown freeform stage for Improvisation.

This is not an easy environment for many people, and for someone new to roleplaying can be quite intimidating, but so long as people have a general feel of the cultures and assorted backgrounds, and have a secure idea of who they want their character to be, there should be no issue.

You play your character. You enter the world, and act, and react accordingly to thier beliefs, ideas, needs, and motivations. If you are a Kami cultist, you simply play a kami cultist. You don't need to know if X-matis is nuetral/jena lover/reformed kami follower etc, whatever to talk with them icly and find out, or even roleplay out a great argument or discussion. You, be your character. You, react as your character would to whatever it is they come across.

and, here's the key- you let the people you are roleplaying and reacting to know that OOC you are just playing, and ensure they are game and want to roleplay with you, be it argue, duel, or even simply hang out in the local pub.

Today I was out IC hunting around pyr, and we came across a great Mage of a clearly upper level. Our group of roleplayers all paused in awe and respect, and talked with him. Before long it was clear he was uncomfortable around the matis in our group, and preferred an od older dialect of Fyros speech. My character, who is forever on her quest for news of her brother, noted the more elder stance of the man and asked for any news. This guy, who OOC of course had no clue who her brother is/was, decided he had heard of him, but had no location to give. Only that her brother had done something nice for him, and he owed her recompense in respect for it. He made her a sword, in honor of this completely fictional deed.

I still have no clear clue what specific bent or background he was trying to play, but because we interacted IC I know he is likely of a more egocentric fyros clan, and one who prefers to revive the old ways of the lands, and doesn't trust Matis. What old ways of the lands? doesn't matter.

If he has a totally different idea of them than any other fyros out there, he still played them well and we had a cool bit of interaction IC.

And that's the point of good roleplay.

The minute you set down "rules that can't be broken" about anything in a creative manner, someone comes along and decides they wanna play thier character in a way that would break them, and it starts wars over something that should never be viewed half as tense.

as far as the basic story, a fast glance over the main website gives more than enough of the basics to set any roleplay environment with no need for more clarification, because our imaginations are what define the real story we live and play out. not a conference nor the game.

stop thinking inside your box of religious conventions, cannon and rules, and start thinking about the players and roleplayers who are all out there looking for a way in, waiting for that sign that says "go for it" to just start playing thier characters, so the real fun can begin.

Focus on the OOC respect, and the IC fun will flourish, without need for other tight rules of cannon or anything, really. People will play and roleplay it thier own way, and that's a GOOD thing.

In the real world if you come across a Catholic or a Southern Baptist, or a Jewish person you know are are certain things they beleive in that makes them a part of that group. We need to have certain set definitions in game. Right now if someone says they are a Karavan follower that doesn't mean anything becuase there is no clear idea what the Karavan represent. You could say the website and lore tell us that, but people in the game don't follow that.

madnak
February 6th, 2005, 07:15 PM
Ackir, if you play that way the other characters will just see you as insane. Nothing wrong with that, as long as no feelings are hurt.

Raynes, I disagree. We can talk more about it on Saturday.

eohlwyn
February 6th, 2005, 09:26 PM
I am saying that when a player labels their character as something (note: not me labelling them) and plays that way, there needs to be consistancy with the lore.


I disagree. When a player labels their character as something and plays it that way, there needs to be a consistancy with that character.

The lore is there as a nice and loose backdrop for our creativity to take and run story from, not set limits by.

So feasably, you could play a character like you described. Too much goo makes one pretty crazy. It might be really fun to even see that character interact, evolve into an anti hero following his beliefs, sudenly the scene would discover it has a "bad-guy" other than an opposing faction to deal with, maybe he recruits other goo heads to his psychosis or even uses the goo to torture and transform some victims into henchmen in his crusade to eliminate this homin threat to the kitins.

So long as all of his "victims" knew he was roleplaying and consented to roleplaying with him as victims/followers, it's all pretty good, and suddenly we have a story that is wild, crazy,...

and motivating for other roleplayers to react ic to.

While I understand that there is a human predisposition for trying to set definitions for any given thing, laying out set definitions beyond the general concepts a game's pre written lore has already granted everyone to pick from invites an unsavory set of ooc events. An event chain that someone else reffer'd to and is -ALWAYS- a precurser to an eventual death of the roleplay scene, known as the birth of "Role-play Police."

Here is what happens- /begin fictional re-enactment-

"Hey you, what are you roleplaying as?"
"Oh! I'm a Kami supporter. Wow, nice to meet more r/pers."
"Nuhuh! We had a conference and that said all Kami supporters are supposed to follow this -blahblahblah-. You aren't roleplaying a Kami supporter right!"
"Um, I read the website and based my character off of that, why can't I just play my character?"
"Because everyone agreed that kami supporters had to be this so we knew what they believed."
"But um, my character doesn't believe that and is still a Kami supporter"
"Nuhuh, he can't be, we made it so. You'd be cheating if you played it like that"
"Um, sure.. whatever, I'll just go.. play over here on another server/game where I can play my Kami supporter how I want."
"Cheater!...."

/end fictional re-enactment.

But you get my drift. And mind you that was a mild example of what i have physically witnessed happen to former roleplay scenes as they deteriorate into "r/p police" diatribes of who's following or breaking cannon's that people decided they "needed" in order to be able to roleplay in a fictional world.

now as for-
In the real world if you come across a Catholic or a Southern Baptist, or a Jewish person you know are are certain things they beleive in that makes them a part of that group. We need to have certain set definitions in game. Right now if someone says they are a Karavan follower that doesn't mean anything becuase there is no clear idea what the Karavan represent. You could say the website and lore tell us that, but people in the game don't follow that.

It doesn't matter if the people in game don't follow that entirely, perfectly, or even well, so long as they stay true to thier character.
And as for the assumed belief systems of the mentioned religiouss groups in real life, no, you really don't know there are any specific things they believe in, unless you run your life by taking steriotypes at face value.

There is such an infinite range of what any given person might subscribe to or not in any given religion that you'd basically be type-casting half of humanity to assume that baptist A really does share the set belief structure of baptist B.

It's... a pretty shallow way to go about things when the possibilities of roleplay are endless when people have the freedom to decide what each group means on thier own.

And I appologize if I am coming off as somewhat harsh here. But I am speaking from a place of experience in longstanding roleplay scenes. I've made similar mistakes of setting, or rather allowing a "cannon" rule to be set, and watched as it got turned around in my face and slowly destroyed a roleplay community that I loved and adored.

I truely enjoy this game, and I would simply hate to watch the current roleplay community repeat mistakes that I witnessed destroying other realms. It is an issue I am passionate about, and have experience in.

If you waste all your energy to define IC cannons, rather than simply arranging OOC boundaries of respect, you will sign your own death warrent to positive roleplay.

raynes
February 6th, 2005, 10:54 PM
I've thought about this some more and have come the the conclusion that if people want to rp where its ok to interpret everything as the see if, then who am I to argue. So from now on when someone says they are neutral, they aren't because I don't interpret that way. When someone says the Karavan aren't a strict religion, it won't matter because under my view they beleive the Karavan is a strict religion.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

Takashi
February 7th, 2005, 12:30 AM
Raynes just because you interpret things one way doesn't mean that everyone else must do the same. You are welcome to your opinions, but don't try to take that right away from other people.

This goes for everyone else too.

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

raynes
February 7th, 2005, 12:46 AM
Raynes just because you interpret things one way doesn't mean that everyone else must do the same. You are welcome to your opinions, but don't try to take that right away from other people.

This goes for everyone else too.

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

Lets put this in a frame of reference that would effect you. As it is you have the Kitin as enemies. They are out to kill homins. From now on everyone has thier own interpretation of the Kitin and no one agrees they are enemies or even a problem. Where does that leave your events?

Or if people can't agree on some basic definations that say what a Karavan is, then what is the point of having a Karavan. In fact if there is never meant to be some basic definations concerning story elements, why bother with the lore and why bother designing a game around that lore. It obviously means nothing.

eohlwyn
February 7th, 2005, 01:15 AM
I rp my character according to the lore set forth by the game. The write up about the Kami says that they oppose the Karavan. YOU CAN NOT ARGUE THAT. Now explain to me how I am suppose to oppose the Karavan (and it's followers) if there is no clear answer as to what the Karavan and their followers represent?

Again the makers of this game have come up with a story that features two opposing religions. The Karavan and the Kami. In order for one to oppose the other there has to be a clear understanding what one is about.


According to what I read on the main website, the Kami oppose the Karavan because they believe the Karavan are enslaving the Matis and Tryker sects of homins using thier devotion to Jena to blind them to thier bidding. In fact, to quote the IC explaination on the main Kami page-

Remember, your destiny is linked to the life of Atys, homin, and not to the false prophecy of the Karavan. They are foreigners here, invading creatures come from afar to steal our resources, they care not a bit for the welfare of Atys.

When looking at the main Karavan site, you read pretty much the same thing regarding the Kami, that they're evil spirits trying to enslave homins to thier bidding.

That's a pretty clear outline as to how the NPC's see the different sides of the faction war. You don't have to know what a Karavan really believes at all to oppose them if you follow your own concept of what the Kami believe.

However the individual roleplayers on either side choose to interpret the loosely given npc dynamics, well, makes for more than half the fun.

And as for "arguing" anything, my appologies for sounding fecescious, but yes, I can, because it's a fictional universe. As can anyone coming in looking to create a character and do something unique and cool with roleplay. That's just my point.

The minute you or anyone decides something can only be one way, someone else will have an idea that conflicts. That budgeons roleplay police, and a real mess and alot of unhappy people who were just trying to play thier character how they wanted.

All of a sudden something happens like.. a Karavan saves a Kami's life from a rampaging Kitin, and the world shifts.

That flexibility is what makes story great.

You are welcome to your opinions, but don't try to take that right away from other people.

This goes for everyone else too.

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

and Thank you, Takashi, for making your voice heard here. It is refreshing to see GM's taking note and interest in the events of players, as it is something somewhat unheard of in alot of games out there currently. I think you summarized what I've been trying to say better than I have, not to mention fifty times shorter.. heh. *thinks to self- must work on wordiness issues*
But thank you. Seeing a GM step in reaffirms my choice in having gone with ryzom for my gaming platform for roleplay.

raynes
February 7th, 2005, 07:21 AM
According to what I read on the main website, the Kami oppose the Karavan because they believe the Karavan are enslaving the Matis and Tryker sects of homins using thier devotion to Jena to blind them to thier bidding. In fact, to quote the IC explaination on the main Kami page-

When looking at the main Karavan site, you read pretty much the same thing regarding the Kami, that they're evil spirits trying to enslave homins to thier bidding.

That's a pretty clear outline as to how the NPC's see the different sides of the faction war. You don't have to know what a Karavan really believes at all to oppose them if you follow your own concept of what the Kami believe.

Then you haven't read the information pertaining to the the Kami and the Karavan. From the Higher Power section of the lore:

From the Mara Fragments:
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_higher_kami_mara
""The Karavan represents a minor menace for them. The magnetic fields that their technology and machinery emit perturb plant life. Furthermore, years of Karavan gathering resources thanks to links with homins is beginning to wear down the planet's natural reserves. "

In the entire Mara fragments, the one article that explains the position of the Kami cleary. It is all written from the standpoint of them being the guardians of nature and opposing things that threaten nature. The Kami are against the Karavan because they hurt the nature of Atys. The above quote clearly states that is the fact.

The quote you took is a Kami telling the reader (a Homin) why they should join the Kami forces and not the Karavan forces. You can tell that it is a Kami talking to the reader (a homin) from the word "your". Furthermore the quote you took goes back to the idea that the main goal of the Kami is to protect the enviroment by the fact it talks about stealing resources and not looking out for the welfare of Atys. There is nothing in that statement about homins doing any bidding and there is certainly nothing about enslaving the Matis or Tryker.

As for the reason the Karavan are against the Kami:

From the Flanagan Files:
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_higher_karavan_flanagan

"Kamis represent serious rivals. Not only do they rally many homins to their cause to the detriment of the Karavan, but they are also resistant to the latter's technology. The Kamis also prevent them from setting up base camps on Atys."

It has nothing to do with the Kami enslaving homins. The reason the Karavan are against the Kami is because they are preventing them from establishing a presence on Atys. The statement of rallying homins goes along with this idea, as the more homins that do not rally to the Karavan cause, the harder it becomes to establish themselves on the planet.


This is why I get annoyed. It's one thing to interpret the lore a certain way, it's an entire other to completly ignore very specific parts of it. If people want to interpret the reasons why the Kami are so stuck on protecting the environment, there is nothing wrong with that. Likewise if people want to intrepet why the Karavan are taking resources and want to put bases on Atys, that is also ok. But it is not ok to have people ignoring specific parts of lore so their intrepratation will make sense.

Look if you want to interpret that the Kami hate the Karavan, you need to come up with the reasons why your interpet it that way. You said that it has to do with the Karavan enslaving the Matis and the Trykes. Well where does it say that? You gave a quote but no where in that quote does it mention anything like that. So what are you basing that interpratation on?

varelse
February 7th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Raynes just because you interpret things one way doesn't mean that everyone else must do the same. You are welcome to your opinions, but don't try to take that right away from other people.

This goes for everyone else too.

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

Thank you!

figgybee
February 7th, 2005, 04:39 PM
But it is not ok to have people ignoring specific parts of lore so their intrepratation will make sense.

*laughs*... you really don't know much about religion or history, do you? ;)

And thankyou Takashi. I guess that when the GMs decide something needs to be done about moving the storyline forward, they'll do it, huh? You need to have more faith, Raynes. :)

turkka
February 7th, 2005, 05:02 PM
First of all, this all is valuable discussion. Not for interpretations of different factions, but as discussion of different role playing consepts.

This is why I get annoyed. It's one thing to interpret the lore a certain way, it's an entire other to completly ignore very specific parts of it. (clip clip) But it is not ok to have people ignoring specific parts of lore so their intrepratation will make sense.

Isn't ignoring of a fact interpretation of lore? Isn't there something human in selection of own beliefs? It would take a scientific approach to come up with information without much bias. Are you scientist or priest or just another guy in crazy world?

I am with Eohlwyn - character needs to make sence only in it's own subjective logics. If they defy logics of the world, call them crazy or ignorant.


I would like to see theologic discussion IC rather than OOC <wink>

raynes
February 7th, 2005, 05:29 PM
First of all, this all is valuable discussion. Not for interpretations of different factions, but as discussion of different role playing consepts.



Isn't ignoring of a fact interpretation of lore? Isn't there something human in selection of own beliefs? It would take a scientific approach to come up with information without much bias. Are you scientist or priest or just another guy in crazy world?

I am with Eohlwyn - character needs to make sence only in it's own subjective logics. If they defy logics of the world, call them crazy or ignorant.


I would like to see theologic discussion IC rather than OOC <wink>



Isn't ignoring of a fact interpretation of lore?

No ignoring facts when interpreting something is called ignorance.

And Figgybee, I know quite a bit about religion and history. The thing that is key to interpretation is that one must have reasons for their interpretation. Not reasons like "because I think so", but reasons based upon some sort of information. Along with that if one doesn't agree with anotherís interpretation of something, then they are obligated to provide reasons why the interpretation is wrong. For example:

I say that eohlwyn's interpretation of the Kami and Karavan reason for being enemies is wrong. I support that with the fact that no where in the lore does it say anything about the Kami being against the Karavan because they are enslaving the Matis and Tryker. I have also provided support for my dismissal of eohlwyn's interpretation by showing that the quote used said nothing about the reasoning that eohlwyn believes is correct.

Now if eohlwyn feels that my interpretation is incorrect, then he/she needs to provide me reasons why that is the case. Or if he/she feels that their interpretation is still correct even though I have disproved it, more evidence needs to be brought forward to support that. If that can't be done, then its in no way acceptable to continue using that interpretation. If it is used, then it again goes back to ignorance.

dguy1
February 7th, 2005, 05:38 PM
I've thought about this some more and have come the the conclusion that if people want to rp where its ok to interpret everything as the see if, then who am I to argue. So from now on when someone says they are neutral, they aren't because I don't interpret that way. When someone says the Karavan aren't a strict religion, it won't matter because under my view they beleive the Karavan is a strict religion.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

I thought for a minute there you got it. Then I realized you were being sarcastic.

figgybee
February 7th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Now if eohlwyn feels that my interpretation is incorrect, then he/she needs to provide me reasons why that is the case. Or if he/she feels that their interpretation is still correct even though I have disproved it, more evidence needs to be brought forward to support that. If that can't be done, then its in no way acceptable to continue using that interpretation. If it is used, then it again goes back to ignorance.

"Prove why you shouldn't do as I tell you" is not a stance likely to win you many friends. Now you're free to interpret the lore as you please, and to have your opinion on how the game should be played, but you can't expect everyone else who plays on the server to fit in with how you want them to behave.

I'd refer you back to Takashi's post, and then ask exactly who you think you are to decide what is and isn't "acceptable".

amcyr
February 7th, 2005, 08:05 PM
"Prove why you shouldn't do as I tell you" is not a stance likely to win you many friends. Now you're free to interpret the lore as you please, and to have your opinion on how the game should be played, but you can't expect everyone else who plays on the server to fit in with how you want them to behave.

I'd refer you back to Takashi's post, and then ask exactly who you think you are to decide what is and isn't "acceptable".

Sure. If some Tryker wants to refer to themself as an elf, and to Zorai as orcs, who am I to disagree. ;)

Seriously, I think the game lore has to be taken somewhat into account, or we will get situations like above. Now I don't say some players may get the lore wrong, but if we notice such an error, we should explain it gently and i/c if possible.

eohlwyn
February 7th, 2005, 08:11 PM
No ignoring facts when interpreting something is called ignorance. (clip) Now if eohlwyn feels that my interpretation is incorrect, then he/she needs to provide me reasons why that is the case. Or if he/she feels that their interpretation is still correct even though I have disproved it, more evidence needs to be brought forward to support that. If that can't be done, then its in no way acceptable to continue using that interpretation. If it is used, then it again goes back to ignorance.


Thank you for clearly identifying yourself as the sort of roleplayer I prefer not to roleplay with. In an intelligent circuit your means of saying that your way is right just above is also a thinly veiled way of saying no other way can be without being ignorant. This is a means of pressuring someone to battle on your level and subtly riling them, which leads to flame wars. Whether my example was "right" or "wrong" is a non issue at this point.

As I simply do not partake in those.

I respect your need for yourself to have more regulated definitions, but I believe the GM said it all.

Lore and what is or is not acceptable in interpretation is entirely an individual manner for each character. Not everyone is going to have read all the lore before committing to an IC ideology, and that's ok, so long as they're true to thier character.
No one has the right to say thier interpretation is right and others' aren't.

I would continue to sit here and beat a dead mektoub with you Raynes, but you are clearly ingrained in your philosophy, so instead I will respectfully agree to disagree, and simply refrain from r/ping with you in the future, as I prefer not to have others dictate my right or wrong interpretations of anything.
/bow Raynes
Thank you, sincerely, for a relatively adult debate.

(ps- and it's "she". I'ma girl. :p )

figgybee
February 7th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Sure. If some Tryker wants to refer to themself as an elf, and to Zorai as orcs, who am I to disagree. ;)

Seriously, I think the game lore has to be taken somewhat into account, or we will get situations like above. Now I don't say some players may get the lore wrong, but if we notice such an error, we should explain it gently and i/c if possible.

Oh, definitely... if someone makes a simple factual error while roleplaying (and i/c is always good). But I think we can all see that this is a step beyond that.

(ps, I thought the Zorai were the elves? ;))

oldmess
February 7th, 2005, 08:45 PM
(ps, I thought the Zorai were the elves? ;))

The Tryker are the hobbits. Cute and cuddly until you mess with our homes. Then we bite your ankles really hard. :D Since we were once enslaved by the Matis, they would be the Orcs, except that now we get along with them.

Oh, and the Karavan are the Vorlons. Of course then Matis would be the Minbari. Oops; metaphor overboard. Darn those French guys for not sticking to a metaphor that we could all recognize!

<ooc>Personally, I think this entire debate about the lore has been really useful in terms of highlighting the different ways that different players see the world of Ryzom. Hopefully, even more goodness will come out of Saturday's conference as well.</ooc>

raynes
February 7th, 2005, 08:48 PM
"Prove why you shouldn't do as I tell you" is not a stance likely to win you many friends. Now you're free to interpret the lore as you please, and to have your opinion on how the game should be played, but you can't expect everyone else who plays on the server to fit in with how you want them to behave.

I'd refer you back to Takashi's post, and then ask exactly who you think you are to decide what is and isn't "acceptable".

I don't decide what is acceptable. Facts, substance, and being able to give reasons for your position do. And I am not saying "prove why you shouldn't do as I tell you". I'm saying "give me reasoning supported by some facts as to why your intrepatation has some merit".

This conversation has gone far enough. It's very clear that the themes written in the storyline are going to be ignored by most rp'ers. Furthermore just because Takashi said that everyone is allowed to interpret things as they see fit, doesn't mean that it's ok to interpret things without reasoning behind them.

I am left to ask what is the purpose of this meeting? To setup some guidelines for RP in the game? What are you going to base those guidelines on? If everyone is intrepting things as they see fit and behaving according to them, how can you make rules? To talk about what the lore means? What's the purpose in that if no one is required to give any sort of support for their intreprations? To talk about some way communitcation so that events are easier to make happen? How can you make events if no one agrees on common themes in the storyline and RP community.

sidusar
February 7th, 2005, 09:38 PM
I'm mostly going to have to agree with Eohlwyn on this one, because I've also seen the situations that she described; players getting into ooc fights over how the characters are 'supposed' to be played. It pretty much kills off all the enjoyment in RPing for a lot of people, including myself.
In the real world, there are usually lots of very different people with very different believes all considering themselves to be followers of the same religion. The difference is that all of them interpret that religion in a different way. I see no reason why this can't be so for Atys; characters following their chosen religion in whichever way they interpret that religion (which doesn't have to be how the person playing the character interprets it).

How can you make events if no one agrees on common themes in the storyline and RP community.
I wouldn't know, but as I see it, there simply is no other choice. It's impossible to make the whole playerbase agree on how to interpret the lore. Just you and I could probably debate forever about how strict the Karavan are without ever coming to an agreement. Now add a 100 more players and a dozen other subjects to that debate. Nothing's going to come out of that.
It would be really nice if we had a GM roleplaying the Karavan Commander (and Ma-Duk, and king Yrkanis, and a lot of other NPC's for that matter) to clearly communicate their wishes to the players. But we don't, the lore is all we have to go on, and people are going to interpret that lore in different ways.

asaseth
February 7th, 2005, 10:46 PM
I say that eohlwyn's interpretation of the Kami and Karavan reason for being enemies is wrong. I support that with the fact that no where in the lore does it say anything about the Kami being against the Karavan because they are enslaving the Matis and Tryker. I have also provided support for my dismissal of eohlwyn's interpretation by showing that the quote used said nothing about the reasoning that eohlwyn believes is correct.

Now if eohlwyn feels that my interpretation is incorrect, then he/she needs to provide me reasons why that is the case. Or if he/she feels that their interpretation is still correct even though I have disproved it, more evidence needs to be brought forward to support that. If that can't be done, then its in no way acceptable to continue using that interpretation. If it is used, then it again goes back to ignorance.

Not quite ignorance. More along the lines of runing off of some pre-conceved notions, much like the characters would be when they had just left newbie island. Some may have the foresight to check the lore on the main page, and some may check the forums, but most just starting out, would only read what they find out in game, and while it has been a while since I was in newbie land, I think the Zorai greeters were saying that the Karavan were effecttively evil, from a cultural standpoint.

"Furthermore, years of Karavan gathering resources thanks to links with homins is beginning to wear down the planet's natural reserves. "
Between what the Greeters that people meet first-thing on Newbie Island, and this line, one can make an argument that the Karavan had enslaved those that follow them. There is also the fact that where-ever there is one of those Karavan hovering ships, there is a mass of Karavan and a bunch of Karavan followers, from all the homin tribes, wandering around.

Takashi
February 7th, 2005, 11:13 PM
Furthermore just because Takashi said that everyone is allowed to interpret things as they see fit, doesn't mean that it's ok to interpret things without reasoning behind them.

Actually.... It does mean that. Frankly, if someone wants to start a conspiracy theory about the Kami working together with an elite group of homin crafters to make the ultimate weapon to eradicate all traces of life on atys... well more power to them. That's what people and homins do. If you don't let people think for themselves then they may as well all be NPCs who just speak scripts.

Of course everyone thinks their opinions are right. If they didn't then they wouldn't have them. And of course everyone is welcome to share them with others, but nobody may ever try to tell other people that their opinions are not valid. By denouncing their opinions, a person is only degrading the value of their own. Would someone be more inclined to listen to another who said. "You have a valid point, but at least hear me out." Or someone who said "You don't know what you're talking about. This is how it is. Believe me. I know."

Thanks for listening guys!

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

sk8rss
February 7th, 2005, 11:33 PM
Here's how I see this "RP" thing going. Everyone's gonna be complaining left and right about how their feelings are hurt. Which is bull. Sorry, but it is, second everyone's gonna be sitting there saying they can interpret things just how they want. Fine, agreed, I can't stop you, and I encourge you to RP your characters however you want, but be prepared for me to call you an idiot if you're being one. Other than those few mix-ups happening....I hope it's successful, I however, will be at work.

raynes
February 7th, 2005, 11:50 PM
Actually.... It does mean that. Frankly, if someone wants to start a conspiracy theory about the Kami working together with an elite group of homin crafters to make the ultimate weapon to eradicate all traces of life on atys... well more power to them. That's what people and homins do. If you don't let people think for themselves then they may as well all be NPCs who just speak scripts.

Of course everyone thinks their opinions are right. If they didn't then they wouldn't have them. And of course everyone is welcome to share them with others, but nobody may ever try to tell other people that their opinions are not valid. By denouncing their opinions, a person is only degrading the value of their own. Would someone be more inclined to listen to another who said. "You have a valid point, but at least hear me out." Or someone who said "You don't know what you're talking about. This is how it is. Believe me. I know."

Thanks for listening guys!

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

I see. This clears things up a lot for me.

I knew that player actions didn't amount to much in this game. I could accept that because the stuff I did had meaning behind it. That meaning was based upon what the lore explained. Now all the RP I have done, the events I have tired to hold, and the events that I wanted to hold in the future are pointless and meaningless. I say that becuase they are based on expalination written in the lore. If either the reasons for that explaination are ignored or only a few select follow the lore as I have then they hold no purpose. I mean sure I am this devoted Kami extremist that hates the Karavan. But what's the point of that if it has no meaning.

Due to this everyone might as well know that I was trying to put together a event where the Kami side would attack The Kuild camp in the Nexus. It was going to be planned out where the Karavan side would come in and defend the Kuild camp in a pvp brawl. I'm not doing it now. I don't have the energy (or the interest to be honest) is trying to set something like that up. On that same note the attacks on the two Master of the Goo and Black Circle camps are also not going to happen.

If I do something in game it has to have meaning and significance. I can now see that none of it ever will.

eohlwyn
February 8th, 2005, 12:09 AM
Actually.... It does mean that. Frankly, if someone wants to start a conspiracy theory about the Kami working together with an elite group of homin crafters to make the ultimate weapon to eradicate all traces of life on atys... well more power to them. That's what people and homins do. If you don't let people think for themselves then they may as well all be NPCs who just speak scripts.
(snip)

Thanks for listening guys!

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team

Thank you for participating Takashi.

Now as to the question of how to hold events when there is such immense diversity amongst interpretation, it's quite simple.

You hold them.

Like the devs do.

No matter how any given characters interpret any given thing, when larger scale events such as battles, "evil take over the world schemes", weddings, races, invasions, espionage and natural disaster occur, characters react. Events are there to create plot twists and obstacles to a normal character's progression, they enrich developement, and encompass everyone regardless of how they see or interpret them.
They don't have to follow or subscribe to an outline of anything.

If a wave of Kitin all started dancing the conga and donn'd too-too's you better believe that anyone there to see it would react as thier character would react.
For example- some might scrub thier eyes out and decide it's time to quit the goo. Some might decide it's a trick of the enemy to decieve them and attempt to kill the offending Kitin off. Some might take it as a sign of the coming of Ma'duk and bow down to pray. No matter what anyone believes the purpose of that "event" is, it creates story, and interest, (or nightmares for some for this particular example../shiver :eek: ); but it relieves us of the status quoi day to day grind and gives our characters something to help define them, as well as direction.

After an event such as that for instance, the believers of the coming of Ma'duk might decide they must build a temple or even create offerings to the god, and set about doing so before he arrives. Or those thinking it was an enemy trick might plan a counter attack and arrange of "trick" of thier own to avenge thier eyes.

The possibilities are endless.
And no one has to agree with them.
Just agree to respect the people exploring them.

I think this is a strong and mature enough community to overcome any issues of cannon or rules if people simply take the time to recall the main goal here.

that being, as I understood it, to foster roleplay.
I hope and trust that the conference planned and those attending will truely hold to that focus, and not let arguments of specifics get in the way of building and nurturing a creative community.

sk8rss
February 8th, 2005, 02:15 AM
Ugh, the more I think about this the more I realize that it's really going to take extremists on both sides to do anything interesting. Some people must just like the every day level grind that means nothing until an event comes around...but seriously, why not try making things happen our/yourselves?!...oh well (sorry, I know I'm probably regurgitating someone else's post)

jgi47ak
February 8th, 2005, 10:26 AM
I haven't read this thread too carefully but I want to share my point of view. Like Raynes, I have noticed that the vast majority of Matis do not seem to have "normal" Matis views or beliefs. However, my view of the situation is that it is part of a moral break down of Matis society and I try to correct it by role playing. I believe one of my guild's first threads was something to the effect that our guild's goal was to put a stop to these loose morals. I try to role play a Matis who is concerned about the apparent "problems" of Matis society. I suspect that most Matis NPCs still hold normal Matis beliefs though =P. The funny this is that Raynes has done more to promote my cause than I. The KoK role played well and encouraged some Matis PCs to be less neutral at the Karavan Convention thing my guild hosted. I don't think we need rules to make people act the way they are "supposed" to. I think that through good role playing you can get the same affect (to a lesser extent maybe) but in a much more beneficial way. I'm kind of rambling here and would like to be more concise but hopefully people can understand what I'm trying to say. Maybe instead of this abnormal Matis behavior interfering with role playing you can somehow use it to your advantage instead?

I try to play my character as a hard line Matis and Karavan follower but I haven't read extensively into it (I did not know about the reading/writing thing) but if someone points it out to me I'll try to act correctly. I like playing the game more than researching it =P.

When I chose to make my character Matis, I did so because I liked the woodlands environment and knew nothing of the whole Kami/Karavan thing. Incase other people made their decision of their character's race in a similar way that I did, I think that we should not force people to act a certain way.

Ivarion
Gladius Jenae

ackir
February 8th, 2005, 02:09 PM
...encouraged some Matis PCs to be less neutral...

That is awesome, spiffy, and cool wrapped into one.

raynes
February 8th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Thank you for participating Takashi.

Now as to the question of how to hold events when there is such immense diversity amongst interpretation, it's quite simple.

You hold them.

Like the devs do.

No matter how any given characters interpret any given thing, when larger scale events such as battles, "evil take over the world schemes", weddings, races, invasions, espionage and natural disaster occur, characters react. Events are there to create plot twists and obstacles to a normal character's progression, they enrich developement, and encompass everyone regardless of how they see or interpret them.
They don't have to follow or subscribe to an outline of anything.

If a wave of Kitin all started dancing the conga and donn'd too-too's you better believe that anyone there to see it would react as thier character would react.
For example- some might scrub thier eyes out and decide it's time to quit the goo. Some might decide it's a trick of the enemy to decieve them and attempt to kill the offending Kitin off. Some might take it as a sign of the coming of Ma'duk and bow down to pray. No matter what anyone believes the purpose of that "event" is, it creates story, and interest, (or nightmares for some for this particular example../shiver :eek: ); but it relieves us of the status quoi day to day grind and gives our characters something to help define them, as well as direction.

After an event such as that for instance, the believers of the coming of Ma'duk might decide they must build a temple or even create offerings to the god, and set about doing so before he arrives. Or those thinking it was an enemy trick might plan a counter attack and arrange of "trick" of thier own to avenge thier eyes.

The possibilities are endless.
And no one has to agree with them.
Just agree to respect the people exploring them.

I think this is a strong and mature enough community to overcome any issues of cannon or rules if people simply take the time to recall the main goal here.

that being, as I understood it, to foster roleplay.
I hope and trust that the conference planned and those attending will truely hold to that focus, and not let arguments of specifics get in the way of building and nurturing a creative community.


You don't think Takashi and the folks at Nevrax design and come up with events based upon the interpretation of the story they want to push? Come on. The invasions so far have been created and run about one interpretation of the story. That being that the Kitin are out to kill the homins. If you take that idea out of the game then their events mean nothing.

That's the irony of Takashi posting here. He is saying that everyone can interpret things as they want but in order to make events happen and the story go forward the majority of the game has to follow his and nevraxs interpretation of events. He is also saying you can't make anyone follow any one interpretation, yet he and Nevrax do it all the time.

As an example they need the players to follow the line of thinking that the Kitin attacked Atys 3 generations ago in a mass swarming. They need this in order to make the story work and to make their invasions make sense. So to make that happen they have npcs that talk about it, they write articles pushing that idea, they have events that center around Kitins attacking and so on. If a player were to read just the background and not any additional information they could very easily come up with an interpretation that the entire Kitin catastrophe is a story made up by either the Kami or the Karavan to keep homins under their control. That's not an acceptable interpretation so they do thing to make sure people don't think that and instead follow one that they want to push.

raynes
February 8th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Actually.... It does mean that. Frankly, if someone wants to start a conspiracy theory about the Kami working together with an elite group of homin crafters to make the ultimate weapon to eradicate all traces of life on atys... well more power to them. That's what people and homins do. If you don't let people think for themselves then they may as well all be NPCs who just speak scripts.

Of course everyone thinks their opinions are right. If they didn't then they wouldn't have them. And of course everyone is welcome to share them with others, but nobody may ever try to tell other people that their opinions are not valid. By denouncing their opinions, a person is only degrading the value of their own. Would someone be more inclined to listen to another who said. "You have a valid point, but at least hear me out." Or someone who said "You don't know what you're talking about. This is how it is. Believe me. I know."

Thanks for listening guys!

Takashi
Ryzom GM
Windermeer Events Team


Yes, so long as their view on things doesn't go against the plans you and nevrax have laid out. If a large number of players started to play according to a view that would conflict with what you want to push, the devs would be throwing in game elements, and you would be holding events to make them fall back into what you want them to beleive.

zumwalt
February 8th, 2005, 06:59 PM
In the begining, the planet was a dark and deserted place, much like an ordinary moon really, with the exception of the only life aparent on the surface were these bug like creatures.

How they got there is really no mystery at all, for you see, the Karavan were experimenting on creating the ultimate warriors for there battle of supremecy in the galaxy.

They were tired of hand to hand combat and sending in valuable troops to take over planets or at the very least eradicate the life on those planets so that they could eventually control it.

These creatures, as they deemed to call them, were the Kitin.

The Karavan dropped of groups of them in transport ships onto the surface of unsuspecting planets, and later came back to lay claim to the planet once there was not oposition.

There was one flaw in the Kitin though, and the Karavan knew it. For them to grow these mutated beasts, they needed a very dry atmosphere and a planet that was near to dead, this way the Karavan could control the food source that the Kitin had, and thus control the Kitin themselves.

About a centry later, the Kami came along, traveling through space, looking for the source of the Kitin infestation, when they stumbled upon Atys, home to the growth pods of the Karavan with the Kitin sheltered beneath the surface in stalls.

The Kami, both taking Pity on the planet and on the Kitin for there plite, set to work on terraforming the planet so that both plant and animal alike could flourish.

The Karavan did not notice the work of the Kami, since they worked in secrecy on the opposite side of the planet than the breeding grounds, and this allowed the Kami to work there will on the planets surface and beneath.

The slaves to the Karavan, this being the Tryker and Matis, worked diligently for there masters in both growing and training the Kitin without a thought that they were really slaves to the Karavan's will.

The slaves to the Kami were brought to the surface to help them to work there magics, this being the Fyros and the Zoria, who worshiped them as Gods and did see no wrong in what they were doing.

Eventually the two met as the grassy plains and forest overtook the planet, and the Kitin food was now abundant, neither the Kami or the Karavan could control the Kitin and there onslaught of both sides.

As the Kami and Karavan fleed, they took with them as many followers as they could to safer grounds on Atys so that they could build anew and try to again regain control of this Kitin force, that was both gaining in knowledge and power as every day arose.

This is where our story has now lead us, to this day, all sides fight back the Kitin and try to gain full control of the lands for there own purposes.

amcyr
February 8th, 2005, 07:32 PM
The Kami home world was dying, their sun fading into a dark ball. Their only chance was to escape to a new solar system. Unfortunately, their space-drive technology was limited. In desperation, they settled on a small ball of rock they could barely reach.

Unlike their space technology however, their biological knowledge was second to none, and they managed to grow the most wondrous plant on this tiny rock, creating a world nearly 10 times the size of the original planet. They named their new world Atys.

To maintain this plant, the Kami created insect-like beings to look after it. These 'kitin' could crawl from surface to root, nurturing the plant and ridding it of parasites.

Meanwhile, the Human race was expanding its control of space. Because of the long travel times, they created intelligent robots that could survive the rigors of inter-spatial travel. These 'Karavan' robots brought with them the seeds of human life, not regular humans, but humans modified to adapt to strange new environments, and also a sampling of animal life equally modified to survive challenging climates.

And so, in time, a Karavan ship landed on Atys. Under instructions from the re-awaked clone of Dr. Jena, the planet's surface was seeded with life. It was not until several generations later that the new arrivals discovered that they were not the only inhabitants of the planet.

eohlwyn
February 8th, 2005, 10:45 PM
You don't think Takashi and the folks at Nevrax design and come up with events based upon the interpretation of the story they want to push? Come on.
(snip)
If a player were to read just the background and not any additional information they could very easily come up with an interpretation that the entire Kitin catastrophe is a story made up by either the Kami or the Karavan to keep homins under their control. That's not an acceptable interpretation so they do thing to make sure people don't think that and instead follow one that they want to push.

Actually, that's how my real life boyfriend is roleplaying his character. He's physically trying to get himself to negative faction with both kami and karavan, because he doesn't trust either of them and thinks they're working with the Kitin to control Atys for themselves. So far he's succeeding in getting that negative faction balenced for both sides.

The fun thing is, his character could be 100% wrong about what's going on, but he's still really flipping cool to talk and interact with, despite being considered a loon by homin standards. Almost because he'd be considered a loon by a deal of homin standards. You can't help but react to it.

But to a side note, your conspiracy theory about the devs and game gm's "agenda" intrigues me, and makes me wonder from what totalitarian society you believe they hone from.
But please..*shifts to whispery voice* be kind, I beg of you, if you're right about thier agenda, don't tell them about my boyfriend's evil plans to use thier faction system against them and spread his evil idea that clearly contradicts with what they intend. He truely enjoys this game and I would hate to see a Kitin swarm spawned by the evil devs come down and destroy him before he was allowed to have free thought. :rolleyes:

(and aside, I appologize for allowing my sarcasm to finally get the better of me in this debate. I earnestly respect, and almost pity your clear need for strict structure in your playtime, Raynes, where others seek freedom. And I am sorry that you will never really fully have that need met because there will always be people to disagree with you.)

The overall point though, is that we're allowed to interpret and play things how we choose to individually and roleplay guidlines needs to allot for that.

I think someone's suggestion for handling larger lore disparagies icly above made alot of sense, as it still allows for the people playing the disparigies to react and have thier own interpretations still while letting some ic fun happen exploring thier concept of the true nature of matis. So long as it's done respectfully and people don't belittle others oocly for continuing to play thier characters in a lore contradicting manner, it's all good.

And cool funky stories, zumwalt, amcyr! :D That'd be wild to see a character play out as a belief system, for either!

grandma
February 15th, 2005, 05:08 AM
Images from the event:

http://ryzom.vx3lan.com/ryzom/images/gallery/index.php?nav=%3E2005%2002%2012%20Roleplay%20Confe rence

asaseth
February 15th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Images from the event:

http://ryzom.vx3lan.com/ryzom/images/gallery/index.php?nav=%3E2005%2002%2012%20Roleplay%20Confe rence

Good pics, GFunk.